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agrimsrud
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Joined: 07/13/12
Posts: 245
Loc: Apex, NC
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: LocalSailor]
      #1730360 - 04/18/17 05:54 PM (108.232.10.252)

Quote:

LocalSailor said:
Can anyone envision a workable, practical way to solve this blatant disregard for the NPT overnighting problem.





My opinion - the BVI is not very good at enforcing rules in a meaningful but non-draconian way. Take a look at the fishing rules - violators can have their boats impounded? A bit heavy handed IMHO.

If it was me (and it's not) - I would fine them. But not force them to move. Forcing them to move would probably be unsafe and might penalize the wrong people (the boat owners). I would institute hours that you can use the moorings. Say 0600 to 1900. If you're on the mooring ball outside these hours it's a $500 fine. When you pick up your NPT permit this is explained to you just in case you can't read. Problem goes away in a few months and raises some money for the BVI treasury. And the moorings can be used for their intended purpose. That's what I would do if I ran the zoo.

--------------------
Life's short - sail more!


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mcevog
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Joined: 08/25/15
Posts: 45
Loc: NJ USA
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1730368 - 04/18/17 06:54 PM (100.8.121.79)

I agree with that. Quick fine - on the spot - which the agency would work with the charter company to enforce as well. No requirement to move if after sunset or close to sunset. Random swing past in the day to ensure the 90 min limit is enforced. Would generate decent income for the treasury, for a short period of time till the charter companies spread the word about how serious the agency is.

Same applies to charter boats taking up the commercial dive boat moorings as well... I have seen arguments develop between commercial dive boats and charter boat crews, bringing a paying group to dive a site, only to see a big cat sitting at the dive boat mooring with no plan to move on.

Sometimes people forget the fact that need to pay attention to customs and rules, even if it gets in the way of their holiday plan!


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StormJib
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Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 853
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: mcevog]
      #1730377 - 04/18/17 07:31 PM (199.168.151.165)

Certainly the day will come where the powers that be employ "rangers" to "help" us all remain "safe". I am more than positive the collective we will not enjoy the "support" from at least some of these empowered rangers. The other plan long discussed to to raise the fees significantly and limit the visitors at any given times. Some areas far away from the BVI also close reefs on a rotating basis to allow nature to recover. That practice is not different than the hunting and fishing seasons many are familiar with. Be careful what you wish for.

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LocalSailor
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Joined: 06/03/11
Posts: 753
Loc: USVI
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1730393 - 04/18/17 11:49 PM (65.113.105.2)

Quote:

agrimsrud said:
Quote:

LocalSailor said:
Can anyone envision a workable, practical way to solve this blatant disregard for the NPT overnighting problem.







If it was me (and it's not) - I would fine them. But not force them to move. Forcing them to move would probably be unsafe and might penalize the wrong people (the boat owners). I would institute hours that you can use the moorings. Say 0600 to 1900. If you're on the mooring ball outside these hours it's a $500 fine. When you pick up your NPT permit this is explained to you just in case you can't read. Problem goes away in a few months and raises some money for the BVI treasury. And the moorings can be used for their intended purpose. That's what I would do if I ran the zoo.




A good plan -- but as I asked - who does the enforcement??
And I doubt the problem will go away in a few months unless the powers that be strictly do the enforcement and it is widely publicized.
@Sailtowind mentions "be careful what you wish for"

"If I ran the zoo" ----- not a job anyone would really wish for IMHO!!


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Michel_Benarrosh
Traveler


Joined: 12/22/00
Posts: 244
Loc: NY
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1730402 - 04/19/17 08:11 AM (184.153.31.239)

You guys remember my 2016 April fool?
METERS WITH NASTY HORNS ON NPT MOORING BALLS?
OK... Who is laughing now?

--------------------
Michel Benarrosh
Meb@sailonline.com


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agrimsrud
Traveler


Joined: 07/13/12
Posts: 245
Loc: Apex, NC
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: LocalSailor]
      #1730412 - 04/19/17 09:20 AM (198.206.244.4)

Quote:

LocalSailor said:

A good plan -- but as I asked - who does the enforcement??
And I doubt the problem will go away in a few months unless the powers that be strictly do the enforcement and it is widely publicized.
@Sailtowind mentions "be careful what you wish for"

"If I ran the zoo" ----- not a job anyone would really wish for IMHO!!




I didn't know I needed to have a complete solution to the problem in order to be annoyed by the present conditions.

I don't really care how they enforce their own rules. But not enforcing them doesn't appear to be working. And I'm not sure why you and Sailtowind believe that the current completely broken usage of the NPT mooring balls is surely better than some enforcement. As is now I pay for a NPT permit that I accept has rules for fair play and I find out that some percentage of sailors don't want to be bothered by those rules which impacts my usage that I paid for.

But to get back to your point. If they are NPT moorings I would think the BVI Park service would enforce those rules. They already have a boat - I've seen them enforce the swim area at the Baths before. I assume they can drive that boat and enforce some rules with their current personnel. Second idea would be for the NPT to contract out the mooring balls, maintenance, and enforcement to a private party and simply take a percentage of the revenue. That would probably be a better solution but I doubt it would fly in the BVI.

Despite finding a solution to the problem not really being my problem I've suggested some strawman ideas to make it better. You are welcome to put forth other constructive ideas which IMHO would be better input than "that would never work".

--------------------
Life's short - sail more!


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sail445
Traveler


Joined: 07/09/08
Posts: 2056
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1730414 - 04/19/17 09:48 AM (107.72.162.121)

To enforce the rules fairly they would need to time every boat that took a mooring.

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agrimsrud
Traveler


Joined: 07/13/12
Posts: 245
Loc: Apex, NC
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: sail445]
      #1730420 - 04/19/17 10:46 AM (198.206.244.4)

Quote:

sail445 said:
To enforce the rules fairly they would need to time every boat that took a mooring.




I'm not going to pretend to have the solutions and even if I did I doubt it would matter. However - I don't see why the rules have to be applied fairly. If I'm pulled over for speeding I have to face the consequences. Telling the officer that other people were speeding as well has no bearing. The enforcement of the mooring balls could be completely random. Similar to speeding it's the threat that you could be caught that modifies behavior. Behavior takes a while to change - it would likely take several months before the situation gets better. And similar, failure to enforce the stated rules the situation will continue to get worse and soon the whole point of the NPT mooring balls will be lost due to bad selfish behavior that has no consequences. IMHO.

--------------------
Life's short - sail more!


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denverd0n
Traveler


Joined: 10/10/12
Posts: 244
Loc: Tampa, FL
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: sail445]
      #1730421 - 04/19/17 10:51 AM (131.247.65.4)

Cities all over the world have figured out reasonable, and cost-effective, ways to enforce parking laws. Seriously. How difficult can this be?

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Call_me_Ishmael
Traveler


Joined: 01/28/04
Posts: 129
Loc: NB, Canada
Re: NPT Mooring Irritation [Re: denverd0n]
      #1730423 - 04/19/17 11:08 AM (47.55.189.225)

Nobody cares about enforcement, or the quality of the NPT services. They care about the fee revenue. Enforcement costs would cut into that, so therefore it is a non-starter.

I personally think that there is likely some middle ground between an enforcement police state and the existing "tragedy of the commons", but there certainly doesn't seem to be any driver for the NPT to do anything about it. Maybe the major stakeholders (ie the charter co's) could muster some interest since it is the experience they are selling that is affected.

If I ran the NPT I would use a crowdsourced solution in consultation with other stakeholders like scuba operators, day sail charters, and charter operators. Start a website that does some "naming and shaming" - You could send photos with boatnames, time and date stamps, and the charter operators can see who the rule breakers are and perform whatever remedial action they deem appropriate.

Edited by Call_me_Ishmael (04/19/17 11:18 AM)


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