Traveltalkonline.com Forums



Travel and Vacation Forums >> British Virgin Islands

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)
bvilovercgb
Traveler


Joined: 03/09/06
Posts: 380
Loc: ONTARIO
The Logistics of rebuilding.
      #1744938 - 09/11/17 09:02 AM (70.54.1.189)

How do we go about the rebuilding process? Just getting rid of the rubble is one thing, then how does one get the much need materials to the island and up to the rebuilding site. If one has lost "only the roof", there is still much water damage inside the building. How long will it take to restore power to the island? I suspect that a lot of foreign nationals will leave as there is no place for them. And there is probably not enough skilled labour in Tortola from local, to start the process. It just boggles the mind.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: bvilovercgb]
      #1744966 - 09/11/17 11:08 AM (71.224.66.174)

That is why the US Federal government would hire a prime contractor with deep project management skills to get anything critical done in a timely manner. Big players like Shaw or Halliburton are needed to get the power grid and public water safe and operational. Funding and cash will be a major issue from the material importers to the private local homes. Only a professional massive project operator can unboggle.

Most Americans take for granted the consortium of utility trucks that are programmed to show up at every US storm. A Halliburton would already have a barge load of crews on the way with another barge full of poles and wire.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bvilovercgb
Traveler


Joined: 03/09/06
Posts: 380
Loc: ONTARIO
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1744972 - 09/11/17 11:37 AM (70.54.1.189)

I read that the Brit are sending a large crew of these people, now if the materials arrive in a timely manner as you say, Stormjib, one can only hope. A friend said that her pool is leaking, and is wondering if her sewage and cistern are intact. The house has only minimal damage (a couple of windows) but furniture is wet,and people and animals have sought shelter...in need of petrol, and propane by tomorrow...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
agrimsrud
Traveler


Joined: 07/13/12
Posts: 274
Loc: Apex, NC
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: bvilovercgb]
      #1744980 - 09/11/17 11:52 AM (198.206.244.4)

First thing the BVI govt. needs to do is suspend their draconian worker rules. If I understand the law in place currently the owners of property are not allowed to do any work - including cleaning up - without a work permit. If you're trying to boot strap from where they are now that just has to be halted in favor of encouraging as much incoming labor as possible to rebuild. Note that I am not saying the work should be unregulated - rebuilding poorly is not a solution. But remove the red tape.

--------------------
Life's short - sail more!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lonewolf1977
Traveler


Joined: 05/08/06
Posts: 930
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1744984 - 09/11/17 12:16 PM (65.188.173.189)

Totally agree, agrimsrud! Take help where you can get it. I think that there will be an issue on where volunteers can actually be put up each night....at least for a while. Did anyone else see the eco-tents in Cinnamon Bay that appear to be untouched??? Maybe they should put some of those up as a temporary housing situation.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1744986 - 09/11/17 12:27 PM (199.168.151.165)

Quote:

agrimsrud said:
First thing the BVI govt. needs to do is suspend their draconian worker rules. If I understand the law in place currently the owners of property are not allowed to do any work - including cleaning up - without a work permit. If you're trying to boot strap from where they are now that just has to be halted in favor of encouraging as much incoming labor as possible to rebuild. Note that I am not saying the work should be unregulated - rebuilding poorly is not a solution. But remove the red tape.




Yet another reason why the governments hire professional prime contractors. Power, water, roads, bridges, the hospital, even the school must be done immediately. The industrial qualified prime contractors will import ALL the labor to start. Maybe even to blue tarp every building on the island. Any disaster declaration should allow for the suspension of rules. The big contractors will not sign the deal without it. Once the dust settles the large primes will start interviewing local talent that is capable of presenting themselves for an interview of their skills. Over time where is makes sense to complete the projects the quality prime contractors will hire qualified local labor and talent. But, the lack of local labor and talent will not slow the critical public safety infrastructure projects. That is why you hire these massive players with deep project management skills and even longer Rolodexes of talent.

Just because an island did things one way with some success in the past does not translate into success in 2017 to 2018 and beyond. Before this storm the hospitality industry was already very competitive. These storms and events will make many rethink and relook at options like never before.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CGB
Traveler


Joined: 03/22/13
Posts: 348
Loc: now - or when ?
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745001 - 09/11/17 01:25 PM (70.49.187.173)

Methinks the planet has pro's already thinking/working this thru - and each of them a bunch sharper and more efficient than my mind could be
Apparently the UK has already landed & deployed several hundred able-bodied men - with scores more on their way

The USA has hands full with their own issues in the USVI, Puerto Rico, and Florida... we'll soon see how quickly that moves towards solution

As for cleaning up one's own property - there are no restrictive rules - This isn't Florida where if you are a foreign owner - you can't lift a screwdriver on your own home without someone reporting you. On Tortola - nobody will be scoffing at Visitor/Guests helping their hosts clean up after something like this... we're talking friendly help... not paychek... right?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: CGB]
      #1745020 - 09/11/17 02:01 PM (199.168.151.165)

Quote:

CGB said:
Methinks the planet has pro's already thinking/working this thru - and each of them a bunch sharper and more efficient than my mind could be
Apparently the UK has already landed & deployed several hundred able-bodied men - with scores more on their way

The USA has hands full with their own issues in the USVI, Puerto Rico, and Florida... we'll soon see how quickly that moves towards solution

As for cleaning up one's own property - there are no restrictive rules - This isn't Florida where if you are a foreign owner - you can't lift a screwdriver on your own home without someone reporting you. On Tortola - nobody will be scoffing at Visitor/Guests helping their hosts clean up after something like this... we're talking friendly help... not paychek... right?




The BVI Government claims 100 utility lineman are on their way from other islands to restore power. Not details on the dates or who from where. Caribbean Electrical Utilities Association (CARILEC). London so far is only sending soldiers and police for civil order and emergency relief shelters. Food lines will only get you so far....


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JasonHelmbrecht
Traveler


Joined: 11/12/00
Posts: 1224
Loc: Cane Garden Bay, Tortola
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: CGB]
      #1745026 - 09/11/17 02:12 PM (12.130.119.134)

Quote:

CGB said:
As for cleaning up one's own property - there are no restrictive rules - This isn't Florida where if you are a foreign owner - you can't lift a screwdriver on your own home without someone reporting you. On Tortola - nobody will be scoffing at Visitor/Guests helping their hosts clean up after something like this... we're talking friendly help... not paychek... right?




Haha - are you serious? I thought you were local to Tortola. When we purchased property on Tortola we were given a huge list of restrictions and spent years managing the red tape to be able to work on the property. It's possible the BVI Govt has better things to do right now or more likely no inspectors to actually check but the rules do not allow work without a work permit. Just like boat owners are not allowed to work on their own boats.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
GaryC
Traveler


Joined: 01/21/09
Posts: 59
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: agrimsrud]
      #1745030 - 09/11/17 02:31 PM (50.71.125.93)

You are allowed to do work on your own property but I believe there were some rules introduced about foreign nationals doing work on their own boats.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bvilovercgb
Traveler


Joined: 03/09/06
Posts: 380
Loc: ONTARIO
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: GaryC]
      #1745032 - 09/11/17 02:35 PM (70.54.1.189)

I could not believe how many foreign nationals actually work in Tortola. So, there may be a huge shortage of able and willing locals to work. Their families may be using their muscles! Many of the foreign workers may be leaving due to there not being housing for them.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CGB
Traveler


Joined: 03/22/13
Posts: 348
Loc: now - or when ?
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: GaryC]
      #1745034 - 09/11/17 02:38 PM (70.49.187.173)

Jason - I hear you
but, did anyone ever come and "stop" you from working on your own "residential" place?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: CGB]
      #1745037 - 09/11/17 02:42 PM (199.168.151.165)

Quote:

CGB said:
Jason - I hear you
but, did anyone ever come and "stop" you from working on your own "residential" place?




Do not let your Mom get caught sweeping the stoop or pulling weeds in the garden? Many will also get jammed up as their current employers ends or pauses business in this mess. ExPats cannot simply transfer jobs in the BVI anymore.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tpcook
Traveler


Joined: 10/16/00
Posts: 3751
Loc: South Sound Villa Virgin Gorda
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745139 - 09/11/17 07:22 PM (75.133.122.28)

My concern is how financially stable are the 2 local insurance companies for a huge loss like this. Do they have enough re-insurance. If they fail then the problem really become impossible. Many of the non-local labors will go home as they will not have any place to live. I have asked my original builder of my villa to come out of retirement and lead the re-build. He will have to get a workers permit and has asked me to do that. I believe the lower bedroom in my villa is livable, so that is where he would live. I have already contacted some of my USA suppliers of material. It will be a difficult task.

--------------------
tpcook


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: tpcook]
      #1745142 - 09/11/17 07:25 PM (71.224.66.174)

Quote:

tpcook said:
My concern is how financially stable are the 2 local insurance companies for a huge loss like this. Do they have enough re-insurance. If they fail then the problem really become impossible. Many of the non-local labors will go home as they will not have any place to live. I have asked my original builder of my villa to come out of retirement and lead the re-build. He will have to get a workers permit and has asked me to do that. I believe the lower bedroom in my villa is livable, so that is where he would live. I have already contacted some of my USA suppliers of material. It will be a difficult task.





How long was the original build after the foundation in better times?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tpcook
Traveler


Joined: 10/16/00
Posts: 3751
Loc: South Sound Villa Virgin Gorda
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745153 - 09/11/17 08:12 PM (75.133.122.28)

The original 2 bedroom main part of the villa was built in a little more that 12 months. From bare land. The second building was built in 12 months also It also included a pool.

--------------------
tpcook


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745154 - 09/11/17 08:13 PM (71.224.66.174)

Ring the Queen. Tell Her Majestry it is time to keep up with the French.

France’s public insurance agency estimates that Hurricane Irma inflicted $1.44 billion in damage on infrastructure in the French overseas islands of Saint Martin and Saint Barthelemy.

In a statement Saturday, the Caisse Central de Reassurance, France’s public-sector reinsurer that provides coverage for natural disasters, said that amount covers damage to houses, vehicles and businesses.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bvilovercgb
Traveler


Joined: 03/09/06
Posts: 380
Loc: ONTARIO
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745187 - 09/11/17 09:41 PM (70.54.1.189)

I am thinking that any materials, will go to BVI citizens first. They do not have the luxury of having that second home. And getting said materials in will also be a huge challenge...then getting it all up mountain roads. Years I see years to repair.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Jeannius
Traveler


Joined: 09/08/02
Posts: 3439
Loc: Worcester, U.K. and Spain
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745239 - 09/12/17 03:20 AM (81.132.68.180)

Quote:

StormJib said:
Ring the Queen. Tell Her Majestry it is time to keep up with the French.

France’s public insurance agency estimates that Hurricane Irma inflicted $1.44 billion in damage on infrastructure in the French overseas islands of Saint Martin and Saint Barthelemy.

In a statement Saturday, the Caisse Central de Reassurance, France’s public-sector reinsurer that provides coverage for natural disasters, said that amount covers damage to houses, vehicles and businesses.


I had a quick word with Liz and she said to ask for your advice seeing as you did so well after Katrina, which is in your back yard, and you could drive there.

--------------------
Mike

http://sailingjeannius.blogspot.com




Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gordaguy2
Sponsor


Joined: 01/10/05
Posts: 4141
Loc: Adagio Villa, Mahoe Bay,Virgin...
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: tpcook]
      #1745303 - 09/12/17 10:24 AM (174.112.86.166)

Thorsten - Virtually all insurance (property and Casualty) companies reinsurance with other companies throughout the world - the originator collects the premium and your policy is syndicated to other insurance companies thus spreading the risk. For example Lloyd's of London is a giant auction arena where major insurance companies "bid" on originated policies.

Edited by gordaguy2 (09/12/17 10:26 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tpcook
Traveler


Joined: 10/16/00
Posts: 3751
Loc: South Sound Villa Virgin Gorda
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: gordaguy2]
      #1745776 - 09/13/17 04:13 PM (75.133.122.28)

How much do see rates going up

--------------------
tpcook


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Frenchsailor
Traveler


Joined: 09/17/11
Posts: 113
Loc: Quebec , Canada
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: Jeannius]
      #1745800 - 09/13/17 05:18 PM (205.237.40.226)

Quote:

Jeannius said:
Quote:

StormJib said:
Ring the Queen. Tell Her Majestry it is time to keep up with the French.

France’s public insurance agency estimates that Hurricane Irma inflicted $1.44 billion in damage on infrastructure in the French overseas islands of Saint Martin and Saint Barthelemy.

In a statement Saturday, the Caisse Central de Reassurance, France’s public-sector reinsurer that provides coverage for natural disasters, said that amount covers damage to houses, vehicles and businesses.


I had a quick word with Liz and she said to ask for your advice seeing as you did so well after Katrina, which is in your back yard, and you could drive there.






Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Twanger
Traveler


Joined: 06/03/04
Posts: 6053
Loc: Maryland
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1745801 - 09/13/17 05:22 PM (184.182.182.178)

Quote:

StormJib said:
Ring the Queen. Tell Her Majestry it is time to keep up with the French.

France’s public insurance agency estimates that Hurricane Irma inflicted $1.44 billion in damage on infrastructure in the French overseas islands of Saint Martin and Saint Barthelemy.

In a statement Saturday, the Caisse Central de Reassurance, France’s public-sector reinsurer that provides coverage for natural disasters, said that amount covers damage to houses, vehicles and businesses.




There has to be at least $1B in damaged fiberglass alone in the USVI/BVI.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BEERMAN
Traveler


Joined: 06/02/11
Posts: 2530
Loc: VIRGINIA
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: Twanger]
      #1745803 - 09/13/17 05:47 PM (108.45.108.124)

Found this on BVINews.com "Gov't to ease tax on building materials"

"As the territory prepares to start rebuilding after a category-5 hurricane, Irma, wreaked havoc on the territory last week, plans are being put in place to lessen taxes on construction materials.
This is according to a media release issued by Premier Dr D Orlando Smith.
“Premier Smith has indicated that his government will be looking to provide some ease on taxes to local building and construction material suppliers on imports for the rebuilding process to support property owners as we rebuild our communities,” the release said.
It did not specify how significant the tax break will be.
Meanwhile, Hurricane Irma caused widespread destruction to several properties in the British Virgin Islands including to homes, businesses and structures such as utility poles. The greatest damage is said to have happened on the territory’s largest and most commercialized islands – Tortola and Virgin Gordon."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Manpot
Traveler


Joined: 05/07/02
Posts: 15349
Loc: Tortola/ Sonoma, California
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: BEERMAN]
      #1745814 - 09/13/17 06:58 PM (73.241.132.163)

That Virgin Gordon was always a blow hard...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
BEERMAN
Traveler


Joined: 06/02/11
Posts: 2530
Loc: VIRGINIA
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: Manpot]
      #1745833 - 09/13/17 07:58 PM (108.45.108.124)

Quote:

Manpot said:
That Virgin Gordon was always a blow hard...




So...grain of salt with this? I've been reading too much probably and hoping for quick positives.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: Twanger]
      #1745857 - 09/13/17 09:30 PM (71.224.66.174)

The point in all that was the French Government( whoever pays the taxes.) already have a plan to pay for local government disaster on the french side of St. Martin. So far London has promised some clean water and sone police. Back in America FEMA has long had a program to shred well more than a thousand boats and bury the shredded fiberglass post every storm.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jphart
Traveler


Joined: 05/23/11
Posts: 707
Loc: JAX
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1746147 - 09/14/17 09:32 PM (76.18.232.162)

Quote:

StormJib said:
Back in America FEMA has long had a program to shred well more than a thousand boats and bury the shredded fiberglass post every storm.



Ron, Please provide resource, reference, web hyperlink, etc. for that statement.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
SailorFitz
Traveler


Joined: 04/21/05
Posts: 369
Loc: Sarasota, FL (aka The Sun)
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1746158 - 09/14/17 10:33 PM (47.201.228.120)

So why can't the UK military set up "tent housing" for all these displaced citizens.....WHen HR Charlie came through SW FL in 05(?) FEMA set up like 100s and 100s of portable trailers all in a specific area....this gets the people out of the rubble, a CENTRAL place to feed, hydrate, communicate, etc....I'd swear I'd seen in the past "international aid" organizations come into quake devastation and set up tent-citys .....
<off soapbox>

--------------------
Fitz
'07 Trip Blog
'07 Trip Pics
'07 Packing List


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
maytrix
Traveler


Joined: 09/18/10
Posts: 5428
Loc: Massachusetts
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: SailorFitz]
      #1746159 - 09/14/17 10:49 PM (76.19.126.165)

I wonder if they've thought of having volunteers/professionals who can help with cleanup and rebuilding fly in daily to help? Seems they could work with airlines to make it feasible as the airlines rely on the islands being open for business as well. This would reduce the need for support more people on island at least and if possible could allow more help right away since you wouldn't have to be concerned with housing.

--------------------
Matt


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: jphart]
      #1746177 - 09/15/17 07:30 AM (71.224.66.174)

Quote:

jphart said:
Quote:

StormJib said:
Back in America FEMA has long had a program to shred well more than a thousand boats and bury the shredded fiberglass post every storm.



Ron, Please provide resource, reference, web hyperlink, etc. for that statement.





Here are the current FEMA and US Government rules for boats and marine debris post storm. FEMA maintains a database of contractors ready to do massive scale work according to the bureaucratic terms. Katrina and Sandy resulted in massive marine debris and general debris. Thousands of boats involved.

https://www.fema.gov/pdf/government/grant/pa/9523_5.pdf


The segregated temporary dump set up in New Orleans alone post Katrina ran for miles starting at the primary marina. Everything from seas of boats to seas of refrigerators,


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: maytrix]
      #1746178 - 09/15/17 07:35 AM (71.224.66.174)

Quote:

maytrix said:
I wonder if they've thought of having volunteers/professionals who can help with cleanup and rebuilding fly in daily to help? Seems they could work with airlines to make it feasible as the airlines rely on the islands being open for business as well. This would reduce the need for support more people on island at least and if possible could allow more help right away since you wouldn't have to be concerned with housing.





A cruise ship rotating out of service makes the best temporary worker housing.

Post storm workers are generally 12 hour dawn to dusk efforts with all the workers generally moving from bed to work at the same time. Even moving them by busses and truck to the job sites is a project. Bed, airport, plane, job site is not a practical way to timely practical work.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
StormJib
Traveler


Joined: 11/30/14
Posts: 1039
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: SailorFitz]
      #1746181 - 09/15/17 07:48 AM (71.224.66.174)

Quote:

SailorFitz said:
So why can't the UK military set up "tent housing" for all these displaced citizens.....WHen HR Charlie came through SW FL in 05(?) FEMA set up like 100s and 100s of portable trailers all in a specific area....this gets the people out of the rubble, a CENTRAL place to feed, hydrate, communicate, etc....I'd swear I'd seen in the past "international aid" organizations come into quake devastation and set up tent-citys .....
<off soapbox>




Tents are considered a modern government failure when it comes to disasters. FEMA in the US will not even here of it. The US government does have stockpiled tents but only to be use in total collapse.

One challenge with any tent city is sanitation of all types and infections disease control. Where would you put such a thing on Tortola for say 10,000 people. FEMA on US territory would first push for contractors to blue tarp everything. Then modular buildings.

There are major private contractors who know how to do all this. Someone just needs to step in with the funding and sign the contract. What I have heard and read so far is less than $75m in government aid committed for the BVI. 75m is not near enough for a major mobilsation of outside professionals.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Joeswind
Traveler


Joined: 06/15/05
Posts: 1942
Loc: Milwaukee
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1746313 - 09/15/17 08:07 PM (173.89.25.35)

Consider the labor required to rebuild Barbuda, St Maarten / St Martin, all BVI islands, St John, St Thomas, Turks and Caicos, the Keys and Houston....

--------------------
Mike M.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
EarlE
Traveler


Joined: 05/31/10
Posts: 33
Loc: Central Illinois
Re: The Logistics of rebuilding. [Re: StormJib]
      #1747068 - 09/20/17 09:25 PM (75.17.77.165)

About that cruise ship idea.......
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cr...omas/682424001/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)



Extra information
1 registered and 46 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      TTOLCode is enabled

Topic views: 5652

Jump to

Contact Us Terms of Use Advertising on TTOL Traveltalkonline
A Public Service of TTOL