Traveltalkonline.com Forums


BVI Cruise Schedule TTOL Sponsors BVI Travel Calendar
Forum Statistics
Forums39
Topics25,278
Posts173,613
Members24,657
Most Online1,403
Dec 25th, 2017
Top Posters(30 Days)
jazzgal 49
LBI2SXM 40
pat 35
Member Spotlight
pony600
pony600
CT
Posts: 1,023
Joined: June 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
Trinigerl
Who's Online Now
35 registered members (SteveH, PrairieGirl, jrw, ARC, BerneandGary, Mbrott, CdnCouple, nanalindy, BrentCummings, HappyBayLovers, Snorkeller, pburke40, Edwin, jazzgal, RichiT, joe9090, deliveryskipper, JohnInAL, vacanakey, johnhill, GeorgeC1, Uksimonusa, Akflyer, OllieEh, pony600, Bernd, Schwendy, captmoby, 7 invisible), 120 guests, and 368 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Horizon Yacht Charters Fail #167516
08/10/2018 04:16 PM
08/10/2018 04:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
W
WineFusion Offline OP
Traveler
WineFusion  Offline OP
Traveler
W
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21

EDITED BY CAROL HILL TO ADD THE FOLLOWING--Please check the response in this thread by Horizon Yacht Charters and if anyone has any additional questions for Horizon Yacht Charters or the original poster, please send them a private message. Carol Hill

We chartered a bareboat through Horizon Yacht Charters for July 25th - Aug 5th.
Please do not use them if you want to have an enjoyable trip.

Started off with them not having our up to date paperwork on file so I had to go back and give them more information that I had already entered online if they would have just pulled the most current information.
Then they charged me more than I was originally quoted.

We showed up at 9:30am to see if we could board a little early, get provisions stored etc. They told us no, your charter starts at noon. So I wen't to look at the boat to see if it was ready and realized they had just started cleaning it and getting it ready for charter. It was not used the day before as all the cushions were stored. Why would they wait till the morning of to have a boat ready for charter? I had asked for a stand up paddle board to rent for the boat and saw that they had put an inflatable stand up paddle board on the boat. (It was a $200 rental). So I went to the office and asked why I had an inflatable board and that I could have bought one for $200. They assured me they are great and that I wouldnt have any issues with it. Wrong.

At about 12:30pm they told us we could go ahead and start boarding, so we tried to load our bags while there were still two guys actually working on the boat on some kind of mechanical issue. They had the whole navigation screen pulled out and were running a new wire for something. I thought to myself, this is not a good omen.

I asked about a chart briefing and they said they would do that with the boat briefing.

Boat briefing finally starts about 1pm. As he was showing my everything he went to try and start the dinghy and the engine was actually seized and you could not even pull the cord at all. So then they had to go and trade out the dinghy engine. A chart briefing never happened. As he is doing the briefing, I asked how to turn the head's plumbing off into the fresh water so while we are at anchor and national parks, we would not be emitting black water. He just pointed at the sinks and said they are in the cabinet there under the sink. Wrong, I'll explain more later.

After everything we were finally able to leave about 2:30pm. Granted you aren't allowed to sail after 5:30pm so we better get somewhere quickly and lose our first day of sailing since we now have to motor.

Day 2 we realize that our AC is not working but we don't find this out until 9pm when we turn on the genset. I looked in every spot on the boat trying every breaker imaginable and more things that I care to list. I couldn't figure out what was wrong with it. So I call the (24 hour) emergency manager number they gave us to see if they could help. It went straight to voicemail three times in a row. I tried several other times and same thing. WOW emergency number's phone is actually off. Thank God it wasnt a real emergency.

Later that evening we go to get in the dinghy and the latch on the back of the engine comes off when I was trying to raise it and the engine revs to full throttle because the throttle engaged fully. So I had to kill it immediately and then we had to paddle back to the boat so I could find out what happened. I was able to fix the throttle issue but not the broken latch. So I used a bungee cord to hold the cover on until it could be fixed.

Then we went to turn on the anchor light for the mooring field and it didnt work. Called it in the next day and they said "well BVI doesn't actually require boats to have an anchor light, so just leave your cockpit lights on". So i cant sleep outside now even though our AC doesnt work. Ummmm ok.

We leave the next morning to sail to the Baths and one of the lazy jack lines to the stack pack actually broke under sail and when we dropped the main it was a mess. I noticed the same line on the opposite side of the stack pack had been replaced leading me ot believe this has happened before but they didnt replace both lines. (Maintenance 101). We also realized by this time our freezer is not working either.

So they send out a couple of techs and they spend about 4 hours trying to fix these three things. The fix the stack pack, and then realize the reason that the AC is not working is because we turned off the exhaust handles for the units which were under the sinks in each bathroom!!!! Remember during the boat briefing, he said under the sinks for the heads, WRONG, that was for the AC. The valves for the heads were actually underneath the floorboards in the hallways.. Not even close. Thanks boat briefing guy.

They were not able to fix the freezer so we had to go the rest of the trip without one. Awesome.

They supposedly fixed the AC but yet none of the cabins ever dropped below 77f. So, pointless. We left hatches open every night going forward.

They were also not able to fix the broken latch on the engine, which made it fun whenever I had to lift the engine in shallow water.

Next day I got to use the VHF to call into a marina to dock and the VHF doesnt work. It was about 4:30pm. Spend the next 45 minutes trying to get it to work, tried calling the phone numbers listed online for the marina and nothing. By the time we gave up and just went ahead to dock it, the marina staff was off and we were out of luck for our docking slip reservation at Leverick Bay. Thanks Horizon. Of course I tried the emergency number again for them because no VHF is an actual emergency and again straight to voicemail.

I was planning on going to Anegada the next day but cancelled those plans because I have no idea what is going to break next on this boat.

Next night it rains, I close the hatches in our cabin (AC still sucks) and the our top hatch continued to drip water for an hour even though it was completely sealed and closed. Thanks Horizon.

The following night, guests in another one of our cabins was awaken quickly because their ceiling in their room actually fell on them. Are you kidding me?

Other notable issues,
Remote for Windlass on the helm didn't work
Under water lights did not work
Table latches in salon did not work
Port stern button on lazerette broke
Inverter did not work

At the end of the day, I know this boat probably survived a hurricane, but most of the issues listed here were simply because of proper maintenance not being done on this boat. It's obvious that this was a charter company owned boat with no "owner' and it was in my mind a terrible boat experience because of this.

Horizon, a little advice.

Make sure your boat is 100% ready for guests when they arrive. There should not be maintenance work being done on a boat when guests arrive. This should have been caught beforehand. When I pay $6500 for a week on a boat, I expect the boat to be in perfect shape. Please use our rental fee and fix all of the issues on this boat.
if you are going to give Charter guests an emergency phone number to use, make sure someone answers the damn phone!



Last edited by GlennA; 08/18/2018 09:59 PM.
BVI Sponsors
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167530
08/10/2018 11:06 PM
08/10/2018 11:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,982
GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Online content
Traveler
GeorgeC1  Online Content
Traveler
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,982
GA/NC
Some of the issues seem like they were caused by a lack of boat experience. Getting off the dock at 2:30 from a noon start is actually pretty good.
G

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167533
08/11/2018 07:19 AM
08/11/2018 07:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 70
C
captaugie Offline
Traveler
captaugie  Offline
Traveler
C
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 70
That’s just awful. Particularly the emergency number going unanswered. This why have used TMM for 20+ years.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167553
08/11/2018 03:44 PM
08/11/2018 03:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,072
Colorado and Sailing the World
Maria_and_Steve Offline
Traveler
Maria_and_Steve  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,072
Colorado and Sailing the World
Wow, sounds like Horizon should get a better fleet of boats! Not nice to stick you with that one.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: GeorgeC1] #167555
08/11/2018 03:55 PM
08/11/2018 03:55 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
W
WineFusion Offline OP
Traveler
WineFusion  Offline OP
Traveler
W
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
Yeah I guess chartering in BVI only 8 times now is a lack of experience. Maybe when I get to 20 years, I will have sufficient experience. Thanks for your feedback.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167556
08/11/2018 03:57 PM
08/11/2018 03:57 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,646
Tortola/ Sonoma, California
Manpot Offline
Traveler
Manpot  Offline
Traveler
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,646
Tortola/ Sonoma, California
Please post any response you get from Horizon.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167560
08/11/2018 09:12 PM
08/11/2018 09:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,708
Maine
Breeze Offline
Traveler
Breeze  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,708
Maine
Originally Posted by WineFusion
Yeah I guess chartering in BVI only 8 times now is a lack of experience. Maybe when I get to 20 years, I will have sufficient experience. Thanks for your feedback.


Remember, Horizon knows who you are. Just keep that in mind when you present your sail qualifications in the future.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167563
08/11/2018 10:29 PM
08/11/2018 10:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 99
H
henryv Offline
Traveler
henryv  Offline
Traveler
H
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 99
I was a little puzzled about your stand up paddle board issue. I have used both hard and inflatable boards and prefer the inflatables. I actually bought an inflatable - they are built with similar materials to dingys - they are not a blow up toy you could buy for 200.00.


Henryv
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: henryv] #167567
08/12/2018 04:56 AM
08/12/2018 04:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,535
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
Traveler
warren460  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,535
Ontario, Canada
I also prefer our inflatable sup. What brand and model sup did they provide?

If you want an early start, then you need to do a sleep aboard.


Warren
S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 450
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167572
08/12/2018 07:33 AM
08/12/2018 07:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
NC Coast
thepiratedoc Offline
Traveler
thepiratedoc  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 6
NC Coast
Wow what a crappy experience! We have chartered with Horizon three times and have recommended them highly. That is not to say we haven't had a few issues, but ... cruising is fixing your boat in exotic locales, right? Chartering shouldn't be that way, but your experience is worse than anything we have experienced. What boat did you charter?

Our first charter (Bavaria 39 Sawsea Lady) went off without a hitch. Everything worked and there was no AC or generator to break down laugh

On our 2nd charter (Bavaria 46 Greenwave) we had arrived at The Bight on Day1 and the transom platform was locked in the up position. I called the Duty Manager and he came over and fixed it within an hour - faulty switch. We also had an issue with the AC - we were told it would only work in two zones at a time, but in reality it only worked well in one zone at a time. We simply cranked it in the main salon and left the fore and aft cabin doors open and we all slept comfortably.

On our 3rd charter (Nautitech 40 Double Expresso) we had an AC and genset failure due to a corroded raw water nib on a manifold that came apart. We were in CGB and a tech came out within an hour of my call to the Duty Manager. It took all day to repair due to some parts issues (getting a new pump), but was done by 4PM. An extra day/night in CGB was not the worst thing that could've happened to us, but had we been on a schedule we would've been pretty peeved.

We have had good boat briefings with Jalon twice, and our first chart briefing was very detailed. When I asked about a chart briefing on 2nd charter the response was "You've chartered here before, haven't you?". Third charter was post-Irma and I had a bunch of questions re:anchorages and mooring fields and got good info.

My good experiences do not trump your bad experience, but I wanted to share my opinion on HYC. They've never lost our charter/crew info and my dealings with Christalen and Courtney in the office have always been efficient and helpful.

PS Just looked back at your posts and saw you were on Double Expresso as well - 6 weeks after we were. We were told in our boat brief that the helm windlass control was deactivated after someone paid out the entire chain from the helm station. We were also told the underwater lights were deactivated, fwiw. Sorry you had a shitty week.

Last edited by thepiratedoc; 08/12/2018 07:42 AM. Reason: additional comment
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167574
08/12/2018 07:46 AM
08/12/2018 07:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 99
H
henryv Offline
Traveler
henryv  Offline
Traveler
H
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 99
Running the AC units with the drain valves closed may have damaged the units. It is unfortunate about the valve mix up but the AC drains normally are small hoses while the holding tanks have large hoses so it should have suggested these were not the right valves.

The other issue with AC in the climate is that frequently people run the AC while having the cockpit door open for much of the time. This allows too much humid air in while the heat exchanger is hard at work. The result will be ice build up on the exchanger resulting in limited air flow and poor cooling. This can be corrected by leaving the units off for a number of hours or if they have a heat setting it can be run for 20 minutes or so to melt the ice.


Henryv
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167599
08/12/2018 12:37 PM
08/12/2018 12:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Hilton Head, SC
Steve27 Offline
Traveler
Steve27  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Hilton Head, SC
I just make it a habit to run though a checklist I make prior to boarding. I would never leave the dock without knowing the radio worked properly thats for sure. I know on almost every cat the valves are in the floor boards in the bilge. Not sure if you chartered a cat or not though. Sucks that the guy doing your briefing obviously didn't know or didn't really care. I hope that at least your destinations at each spot during the week was nice for you guys.


Cruising the local waters here in SC and GA. Love the BVIs and miss the Tradewinds!
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: warren460] #167613
08/12/2018 05:25 PM
08/12/2018 05:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
W
WineFusion Offline OP
Traveler
WineFusion  Offline OP
Traveler
W
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
I'm not sure of the brand, I guess my main issue was that it had a hole in it and we had to have it replaced with a real board.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: Breeze] #167614
08/12/2018 05:27 PM
08/12/2018 05:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
W
WineFusion Offline OP
Traveler
WineFusion  Offline OP
Traveler
W
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by Breeze
Originally Posted by WineFusion
Yeah I guess chartering in BVI only 8 times now is a lack of experience. Maybe when I get to 20 years, I will have sufficient experience. Thanks for your feedback.


Remember, Horizon knows who you are. Just keep that in mind when you present your sail qualifications in the future.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. I obviously have plenty of experience in BVI. Experience was not the issue, it was the maintenance of the boat.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: henryv] #167615
08/12/2018 05:28 PM
08/12/2018 05:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
W
WineFusion Offline OP
Traveler
WineFusion  Offline OP
Traveler
W
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by henryv
Running the AC units with the drain valves closed may have damaged the units. It is unfortunate about the valve mix up but the AC drains normally are small hoses while the holding tanks have large hoses so it should have suggested these were not the right valves.

The other issue with AC in the climate is that frequently people run the AC while having the cockpit door open for much of the time. This allows too much humid air in while the heat exchanger is hard at work. The result will be ice build up on the exchanger resulting in limited air flow and poor cooling. This can be corrected by leaving the units off for a number of hours or if they have a heat setting it can be run for 20 minutes or so to melt the ice.


We wouldn't even run any AC units until it was time to crash. So that was not the issue.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167628
08/12/2018 08:57 PM
08/12/2018 08:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,518
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
Traveler
maytrix  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,518
Massachusetts
Clearly you had a lot of issues that you shouldn't have had.

A couple issues, I wouldn't consider issues - remote windlass at helm and underwater lights. Both are simply bonus items and actually more rare then common and neither really takes away from a trip. I'd expect any necessary systems or systems that provide comfort (A/C) to be working though.

Having A/C, wasn't that powered on when you arrived? We've only chartered with Moorings and every boat with A/C is always cold when we board. If a boat wasn't, I'd question the A/C right away.

I think George's comment about experience is due to the fact that a number of the items could have been discovered when going over the boat prior to departing. Radio check, checking the A/C..etc. We always check every system we can prior to leaving - radio, genset, A/C, heads, engines, fridge/freezer..etc. Cleaning the day a boat is departing isn't too unusual either.

This is one reason many suggest a sleep aboard. It gives a lot more time to find any potential issues like you had so they can be addressed first thing the following morning.

With all the issues you had, did Horizon offer any credit or any type of compensation?


Matt
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167787
08/15/2018 01:07 PM
08/15/2018 01:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1
H
Horizon BVI Offline
Member
Horizon BVI  Offline
Member
H
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1


Horizon Yacht Charters would like to address the charter on “Double Expresso” that has been a topic on this forum. Since 1998, Horizon has built a reputation within the industry for offering well maintained yachts and excellent customer service so it is with deep regret that our charter guest was disappointed on this occasion. We complete extensive Technical, shipwright and Rigging checks before each charter and at the end of every charter we debrief the captain. We do this to ensure all items, small and large, are addressed. The Debrief is signed by the Captain at the end of the charter. This charter did the same at end of their charter. Four items were mentioned. Three of had already been addressed on a service call during the charter. At no time during the debrief was it mentioned that the guests were extremely unhappy with their charter experience. We take reviews very seriously as we always strive to exceed our guests expectations and have listed below a more detailed response to each of the issues raised in this post.

Charter fee: On 7th March at 10:01am, client was quoted $5695.00 for their charter. We agreed to reduce this by request by $150 to price match a quote from another charter company. Client was given three free days as seasonal promotion; 10 nights for the price of 7. The price actually paid for the charter was $5545.00 as agreed. Also note that the charter commenced on the 26th not the 25th.

Departure Time; On 9th March at 8:43am we advised our guest by email that boarding time would be 12 noon (also stated in the contract). We do endeavor to board clients board earlier when we can, but do not promise this. The charter guest was also informed that the boat brief and chart brief would take approximately an hour each. The time is variable with each client depending on their needs. Departing at 2:30pm is a very reasonable time.

Yacht cleaning: Double Expresso was cleaned fully a few days prior to the guests arrival. She went out on a marketing photoshoot after that full clean. The photo shoot was done with Horizon staff for a couple hours between Nanny Cay and Pelican Island. After the photo shoot all cushions were stacked and stored to ensure they did not get wet or dirty. Whilst we do a full clean at least by the day before charter, our procedure is to do a final clean, inside and out the day of charter start, per the expected time of our client’s arrival. As the client had relayed their arrival time as 10 a.m. on the 26th in Road Town. We had the interior and external cleaner do their job first thing that morning with the expectation of the guest arriving around 11 a.m. after clearing into the BVI. The boat was clean and ready for boarding at noon.

Changing Cable: On the morning of the charter start we had received a network cable to complete a repair to the auto pilot. We put 2 technicians on this job first thing in the morning to ensure the autopilot was fully functional. They completed the job and were off Double expresso by 11 a.m.

SUP: We provided a fully inflated SUP at the beginning of the charter. It was not leaking air. Horizon had changed to inflatable SUPs a couple years ago. We did a trial year before switching from hard boards to inflatable ones. We found our guest liked them just as much as the hard ones and they were easier to handle and less likely to be damaged or cause damage. We have 10’6” Red Paddle SUPs, certainly not blow up toys as TTOL users ‘henryv’ and ‘warren460’ rightly pointed out in this post. Imported into the BVI they are about $1,500. We still have some hard boards. When the client called to let us know that they were unhappy with the inflatable, we delivered them a hard SUP free of charge to Trellis Bay.

Chart Brief: I am sure that Jalon would have given them a full chart brief if he had known that expectation. Either the request was not made clear to him by the captain or reservations, or the guest took departing the dock as the priority. Our Departure Check form was completed and signed by the Captain. The first item on this confirms that a chart briefing was either done or they did not require one. Whilst chart briefing is extra service provided by Horizon on request, we do believe that at least a cursory one should be done as things have changed a bit. Jalon confirms that he did do such a cursory brief with these clients. Some things the guest ignored completely.
Dinghy Engine: We discovered the dinghy engine was seized during our Mechanical checks a few days prior and had prepared a replacement for this charter. Unfortunately, the exterior cleaner was unaware and put the original, malfunctioning outboard with the yacht. Unfortunate for sure. At Horizon we know that things like this will deflate the customer’s confidence in our yachts. The outboard was switched out in about ½ an hour. There was no departure delay due to this as the guests were still putting provisioning on board the yacht at this point.

Dingy Cowling Cover: No doubt the latch was broken. It must have failed on charter. We changed out the outboard the day of charter start with the client there. See above. Anyone who has ever handled a 15 hp outboard knows that if the cowling cover was not secure, you would know it by picking the outboard up and fitting it to a dinghy. Latch failure reported on their 3rd day of charter.

Air Conditioning: As ’maytrix’ rightly points out we always ensure that all the AC units are fully functional and running prior to guests boarding. This was the case here. The air conditioning discharge valves are under the sink and are clearly labelled as such. These are the valve the guest closed thinking they were for the holding tank. The briefer, Jalon, is our most experienced briefer who has been with us for many years. He knows the boats inside and out. He explicitly remembers briefing on the location of the Holding tank discharge valves and demonstrated their use by closing and re-opening the valve. These valves are particularly important on this yacht as they have a locking sleeve which prevents inadvertent operation. The Technical Manual onboard also has a section dedicated to their use and has a photo showing their location and appearance. Not sure if AC was running whilst the guest left hatches open, but of course if so the AC would not work very well this way. With open hatches the evaporator would freeze and limit air circulation. The client used 49 gallons during the charter. The generator uses an average of 1/3 of a gallon per hour. The propulsion motors use less than ½ a gallon per hour as max RPMs/2200.

MOD Calls: At Horizon Yacht Charters we maintain 24/7 support for our guests through the Manager on Duty cell phone. We never ignore this when it rings. We give our guests 24 hour service both on the Manager on Duty phone as well as the Director of Operations personal cell in case there is a problem with MOD communication or if a guest does not feel satisfied with a response. We are there to help with the simple reminders of yacht operation, weather updates, arrange service, etc, and of course in a real emergency. Many other charter companies do not offer this level of service. Post Irma, the whole BVI has struggled with occasional network blackouts. Our coverage is nearly 100%, but repairs and improvements are still needed, but out of our control. Our MOD cell phone shows no missed calls, text messages, nor voice mails from the dates and times this customer tried to call us. We were in contact with the client at least 5 times during their charter.

Anchor Lights: Whilst this is unfortunate that the mast light went out. We discussed the problem with the client and let him know that anchor lights are not necessary whilst on a mooring ball. International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea state that the mast head light is only for use while on anchor, not on a mooring buoy. We suggested that when on a mooring or anytime at night it was better to use a light at sea level to illuminate the boat as the most predictable collision would be a dinghy at night. The cockpit light was used as a suggestion. The guest agreed that this was satisfactory.

Freezer: The freezer was working on departure, Indeed we have an AC and refrigeration specialist, who had installed an air vent so the compressor would work more efficiently before this charter. A door switch on this unit had become dislodged during charter. This switch controls the circulation fan. With that switch not operating the air would not properly circulate. The technician who tried to repair reported that the freezer would not freeze without the circulation fan, but would cool as a fridge. In addition to the freezer, there is a front loading fridge, and a cockpit fridge on this yacht – both were working correctly. Over 200 litres of capacity in addition to the 61 litre freezer that gave issues. It is disappointing that the freezer stopped during the charter, but the other two refrigeration units were fully operational.

Lazy Jack lines: Were new in the spring of this year. Repaired whilst customers were at the Baths the same day they reported the failure.

VHF: The VHF was tested not only during the pre-charter technical checks, but also demonstrated to the guests during the boat briefing the day they boarded the yacht on the 26th. Guest called the Manager on Duty at 11:09am on 30th July. Within 10 minutes we had resolved this issue. There are two VHF stations aboard; one at the helm, and one at the Nav Desk. The mic at the Nav Desk was working. We had the client move the Nav VHF to the client preferred helm station.

Leaking Hatch: We leaked tested the hatches on the 10th of August. No leaks were present. I can only assume that the offending hatch was not ‘dogged down’ sufficiently.

Windlass Remote: The anchor on an Open 40 is deployed from under the bridge deck. It is important to keep an eye on the anchor chain and windlass when you are deploying or retrieving the anchor and chain. The yacht in question cam with a remote control at the helm as part of the yacht manufacture’s package. We disconnect this helm remote for charter use as it’s use could cause problems. It was disconnected not broken. This was explained to the client during his boat brief the first day.

Under Water Lights: I am sorry that these were not functional at the time of this charter. We have subsequently repaired a wiring fault on one and ordered a replacement second unit that needs replacing.
Salon Table: The factory installed latches were prone to failure and upgraded them with much more substantial stainless steel barrel bolts when the yacht joined our fleet. After this review came to light they were inspected and found to be fully functional.

Invertor: Tested after charter and proved to be working. No faults found.

Ownership: This yacht is a privately owned vessel contrary to belief stated by this guest. This is a moot point as we care for each yacht in the same regard for charter maintenance. When we owned the yacht, which we did, we took as good care of it as we would for an owner. We both charter and sell yachts. It is in our best interest to maintain them at the highest standard for both reasons. It does not make sense to put boats out on charter if it is going to hurt your reputation and therefore loose future customers.

At this point I would like to address a couple of points that were not mention in the post.

This charter captain noted on the first day of charter that he was aware that he had to be moored by 5:30 and no sailing at night. Yet, on the penultimate day of their charter they returned to Horizon Yacht Charters with no communication at 7:30 pm. As people at the shoreside restaurant saw this they called a Horizon Manager about it. Jalon went to catch the client’s lines and assist them on to the dock. The client reportedly was pleased to have assistance as it was tricky, and his crew had not put the fenders in the correct position. He then expressed surprise to find Horizon staff there after hours. Obviously if an accident had happened this would have serious consequences for all. If the yacht had sustained damaged and had to be repaired; The client would be responsible for the costs. The next charter guest would not be able to use Double Expresso for their holiday. Horizon would have looked bad for not being able to honour the next charter. Insurance premiums would go up. The owner would have a damaged yacht and lost needed revenue.

National Park Mooring Ball: The captain acknowledges overnighting on one with little regard for the rules. For your information, The charter client is liable to a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00 USD), or to imprisonment for a term of 1 year, or to both such fine and imprisonment for using a Nation Park Mooring for overnight use. This law is highlighted in the HYC “Skipper’s Hand Book” on each one of our yachts. The wording of the law seems extreme and I doubt that anyone would be imprisoned nor taken to full fine, but we would be remiss not to tell our clients the letter of the law.

Out of bounds: It is interesting that the client maintained that he did not get a chart briefing. Chart briefings high light the good spots as well as no go zones. Eustacia Sound is one of those no go zones for our yachts due to insurance reasons. (Explore Eustacia with your dinghy please) There are two independent GPS chartplotters fitted to Double Expresso. Both were laying out continuous track lines of where the boat had gone during the charter. Interestingly enough, one tracking line was deleted. Evidently to hide the fact that Double Expresso had gone into Eustacia Sound. Our guess is that the client did not realize that the other GPS was independent. The other GPS, tracking not deleted, clearly shows the transiting East of Saba Rock and around through into Eustacia sound. This is also covered in the Departure Check Out form that the client signed. They also underlined this particular no-go-zone on that form.

Ceiling falling down: This was not mentioned at debrief nor reported whilst on charter. Our shipwright refitted it the port forward ceiling during his charter checks. Unfortunately the shipwright is now on holiday so I am unaware of the specific problem here. He just reports on his daily work sheet “refit ceiling panel”. The panel is secured by industrial type Velcro so that it can be removed easily to access wiring etc
In summary, since Irma in September 2017, the Horizon Staff have delivered nothing short of a miracle and worked diligently combining the rebuild effort with regular charter operations. Double Expresso has been out on 13 charters this season and up until this one charter we have met and exceeded our guests’ expectations.

We do appreciate the opportunity to address our clients concerns. Whilst the above may well come off as defensive, it was done with great care to the truth and speaking with every staff member involved. It took time to make sure this reply was honest and that was the only reason for any delay in rebuttal. It is regrettable that the clients chose not to deal with these complaints whilst they were here and with their charter company directly. Our team thought throughout the charter that the client was satisfied with the remedies provided. At the very least, we would have thought that if a client was unhappy with their charter they would have said so at the end, during debrief. Especially if they were this unhappy. When things don’t go well on charter we do our level best to remedy them during charter. As someone who spoke with the client during his charter there is a disconnect between the person I spoke to and the person that wrote this condemnation. I am sincere when I say that I am glad that they have come down to the BVI to support the country during a challenging time and enjoy our islands and water. They have chartered in the BVI 4 times, each time with a different charter company. As they love the BVI, I do hope they find a charter company they love equally. We would of course welcome them back to Horizon in the hope of an opportunity to give them a flawless charter the next time they visit.

Sincerely,
The Horizon Yacht Charters Team

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: Horizon BVI] #167789
08/15/2018 01:42 PM
08/15/2018 01:42 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,646
Tortola/ Sonoma, California
Manpot Offline
Traveler
Manpot  Offline
Traveler
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,646
Tortola/ Sonoma, California
Good on Horizon for responding in such detail. I would expect nothing less from them.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167804
08/15/2018 03:55 PM
08/15/2018 03:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,518
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
Traveler
maytrix  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,518
Massachusetts
Thanks for responding. Always good to hear both sides!

I wonder if the leaky hatch could have just been it not being closed all the way - all the hatches I've used have dual settings - one is fully closed and water tight, the other is just a crack, which may keep rain and most water out, but isn't water tight - leaves a gap to breath.


Matt
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167810
08/15/2018 05:25 PM
08/15/2018 05:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,535
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
Traveler
warren460  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,535
Ontario, Canada
I am surprised by Horizon’s wlllingness to welcome him back.

Some people are impossible to satisfy.


Warren
S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 450
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167835
08/16/2018 05:03 AM
08/16/2018 05:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1
H
Horizon Yacht Charters Offline
Member
Horizon Yacht Charters  Offline
Member
H
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 1
Horizon Yacht Charters would like to address the charter on “Double Expresso” that has been a topic on this forum. Since 1998, Horizon has built a reputation within the industry for offering well maintained yachts and excellent customer service so it is with deep regret that our charter guest was disappointed on this occasion. We complete extensive Technical, shipwright and Rigging checks before each charter and at the end of every charter we debrief the captain. We do this to ensure all items, small and large, are addressed. The Debrief is signed by the Captain at the end of the charter. Four items were mentioned, three of which had already been addressed on one service call during the charter. At no time during the debrief was it mentioned that the guests were extremely unhappy with their charter experience. We take reviews very seriously as we always strive to exceed our guests expectations and have listed below a more detailed response to each of the issues raised in this post.
CHARTER FEE: On 7th March at 10:01am, client was quoted $5695.00 for their charter. We agreed to reduce this by request by $150 to price match a quote from another charter company. Client was given three free days as seasonal promotion; 10 nights for the price of 7. The price actually paid for the charter was $5545.00 as agreed. Also note that the charter commenced on the 26th not the 25th.
DEPARTURE TIME: On 9th March at 8:43am we advised our guest by email that boarding time would be 12 noon (also stated in the contract). We do endeavor to board clients board earlier when we can, but do not promise this. The charter guest was also informed that the boat brief and chart brief would take approximately an hour each. The time is variable with each client depending on their needs. Departing at 2:30pm is a very reasonable time.
YACHT CLEANING: Double Expresso was cleaned fully a few days prior to the guests arrival. She went out on a marketing photoshoot after that full clean. The photo shoot was done with Horizon staff for a couple hours between Nanny Cay and Pelican Island. After the photo shoot all cushions were stacked and stored to ensure they did not get wet or dirty. Whilst we do a full clean at least by the day before charter, our procedure is to do a final clean, inside and out the day of charter start, per the expected time of our client’s arrival. As the client had relayed their arrival time as 10 a.m. on the 26th into Road Town. We had the interior and external cleaner do their job first thing that morning with the expectation of the guest arriving around 11 a.m. after clearing into the BVI. The boat was clean and ready for boarding at noon.
CHANGING THE CABLE: On the morning of the charter start we had just received a network cable to complete a repair to the auto pilot. We put 2 technicians on this job first thing in the morning to ensure the autopilot was fully functional. They completed the job and were off Double Expresso by 11 a.m.
SUP: Horizon had changed to inflatable SUPs a couple years ago. We did a trial year before switching from hard boards to inflatable ones. We found our guest liked them just as much as the hard ones and they were easier to handle and less likely to be damaged or cause damage. We have 10’6” Red Paddle SUPs, certainly not blow up toys as TTOL users ‘henryv’ and ‘warren460’ rightly pointed out in this post. Imported into the BVI they are about $1,500. We still have some hard boards. When the client called to let us know that they were unhappy with the inflatable, we delivered them a hard SUP free of charge to Trellis Bay.
CHART BRIEF: I am sure that Jalon would have given them a full chart brief if he had known that expectation. Either the request was not made clear to him by the captain or reservations, or the guests took departing the dock as the priority. Our Departure Check form was completed and signed by the Captain. The first item on this confirms that a chart briefing was either done or they did not require one. Whilst chart briefing is always a service provided by Horizon, we do believe that at least a cursory one should be done as things have changed a bit. Jalon confirms that he did do such a cursory brief with these clients. Some of this briefing was ignored completely by the guests.
DINGHY ENGINE: We discovered the dinghy engine was seized during our Mechanical checks a few days prior and had prepared a replacement for this charter. Unfortunately, the exterior cleaner was unaware and put the original, malfunctioning outboard with the yacht. Unfortunate for sure. At Horizon we know that things like this will deflate the customer’s confidence in our yachts. The outboard was switched out in about ½ an hour. There was no departure delay due to this as the guests were still putting provisioning on board the yacht at this point.
DINGHY COWLING COVER: No doubt the latch was broken. It must have failed on charter. We changed out the outboard the day of charter start with the client there. See above. Anyone who has ever handled a 15 hp outboard knows that if the cowling cover was not secure, you would know it by picking the outboard up and fitting it to a dinghy. Latch failure reported on their 3rd day of charter.
AIR CONDITIONING: As ’maytrix’ rightly points out we always ensure that all the AC units are fully functional and running prior to guests' boarding. This was the case here. The air conditioning discharge valves are under the sink and are clearly labelled as such. These are the valve the guest closed thinking they were for the holding tank. The briefer, Jalon, is our most experienced briefer who has been with us for many years. He knows the boats inside and out. He explicitly remembers briefing on the location of the holding tank discharge valves and demonstrated their use by closing and re-opening the valve. These valves are particularly important on this yacht as they have a locking sleeve which prevents inadvertent operation. The Technical Manual onboard also has a section dedicated to their use and has a photo showing their location and appearance. Not sure if AC was running whilst the guest left hatches open, but of course if so the AC would not work very well this way. With open hatches the evaporator would freeze and limit air circulation. The client used 49 gallons fuel during the charter. The generator uses an average of 1/3 of a gallon per hour. The propulsion motors use less than ½ a gallon per hour as max RPMs/2200.
MOD / EMERGENCY CALLS: At Horizon Yacht Charters we maintain 24/7 support for our guests through the Manager on Duty cell phone. We never ignore this when it rings. We give our guests 24 hour service both on the Manager on Duty phone as well as the Director of Operations personal cell in case there is a problem with MOD communication or if a guest does not feel satisfied with a response. We are there to help with the simple reminders of yacht operation, weather updates, arrange service, etc, and of course in a real emergency. Many other charter companies do not offer this level of service. Post-Irma, the whole BVI has struggled with occasional network blackouts. Our cell coverage is nearly back to 100%, but repairs and improvements are still needed, but out of our control. Our MOD cell phone shows no missed calls, text messages, nor voice mails from the dates and times this customer tried to call us. We were in contact with the client at least 5 times during their charter.
ANCHOR LIGHTS: Whilst this is unfortunate that the mast light went out. We discussed the problem with the client and let him know that anchor lights are not necessary whilst on a mooring ball. International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea state that the mast head light is only for use while on anchor, not on a mooring buoy. We suggested that when on a mooring or anytime at night it was better to use a light at sea level to illuminate the boat as the most predictable collision would be a dinghy at night. The cockpit light was used as a suggestion. The guest agreed that this was satisfactory.
FREEZER: The freezer was working on departure, Indeed we have an AC and refrigeration specialist, who had installed an air vent so the compressor would work more efficiently before this charter. A door switch on this unit had become dislodged during charter. This switch controls the circulation fan. With that switch not operating the air would not properly circulate. The technician who tried to repair reported that the freezer would not freeze without the circulation fan, but would cool as a fridge. In addition to the freezer, there is a front loading fridge, and a cockpit fridge on this yacht – both were working correctly. Over 200 litres of capacity in addition to the 61 litre freezer that gave issues. It is disappointing that the freezer stopped during the charter, but the other two refrigeration units were fully operational.
LAZY JACK LINES: Were new in the spring of this year. Repaired whilst customers were at the Baths the same day they reported the failure.
VHF: The VHF was tested not only during the pre-charter technical checks, but also demonstrated to the guests during the boat briefing the day they boarded the yacht on the 26th. Guest called the Manager on Duty at 11:09am on 30th July. Within 10 minutes we had resolved this issue. There are two VHF stations aboard; one at the helm, and one at the Nav Desk. The mic at the Nav Desk was working. We had the client move the Nav VHF to the client preferred helm station.
LEAKING HATCH: We leak tested the hatches on the 10th of August. No leaks were present. I can only assume that the offending hatch was not ‘dogged down’ sufficiently.
WINDLASS REMOTE: The anchor on an Open 40 is deployed from under the bridge deck. It is important to keep an eye on the anchor chain and windlass when you are deploying or retrieving the anchor and chain. The yacht in question came with a remote control at the helm as part of the yacht manufacturer’s package. We disconnect this helm remote for charter use as it’s use could cause problems. It was disconnected not broken. This was explained to the client during his boat brief the first day.
UNDERWATER LIGHTS: I am sorry that one of these were not functional at the time of this charter. We have subsequently repaired a wiring fault on one and ordered a replacement second unit that needs replacing.
SALON TABLE: The factory installed latches were prone to failure and upgraded them with much more substantial stainless steel barrel bolts when the yacht joined our fleet. After this review came to light they were inspected and found to be fully functional.
INVERTOR: Tested after charter and proved to be working. No faults found.
OWNERSHIP: This yacht is a privately owned vessel contrary to belief stated by this guest. This is a moot point as we care for each yacht in the same regard for charter maintenance. When we owned the yacht, which we did, we took as good care of it as we would for an owner. We both charter and sell yachts. It is in our best interest to maintain them at the highest standard for both reasons. It does not make sense to put boats out on charter if it is going to hurt your reputation and therefore loose future customers.

AT THIS POINT I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS A COUPLE OF ISSUES THAT HORIZON EXPERIENCED WITH THE CLIENTS THAT WERE NOT MENTIONED IN THIS POST:

NO SAILING AT NIGHT: This charter captain noted on the first day of charter that he was aware that he had to be moored by 5:30 and no sailing at night. Yet, on the penultimate day of their charter they returned to Horizon Yacht Charters with no communication at 7:30 pm. As people at the shoreside restaurant saw this they called a Horizon Manager about it. Jalon went to catch the client’s lines and assist them on to the dock. The client reportedly was pleased to have assistance as it was tricky, and his crew had not put the fenders in the correct position. He then expressed surprise to find Horizon staff there after hours and in the dark. Obviously if an accident had happened this would have serious consequences for all. If the yacht had sustained damaged and had to be repaired; The client would be responsible for the costs. The next charter guest would not be able to use Double Expresso for their holiday. Horizon would have looked bad for not being able to honour the next charter. Insurance premiums would go up. The owner would have a damaged yacht and lost needed revenue.
OVERNIGHT MOORING ON A NATIONAL PARK MOORING BALL: The captain acknowledges overnighting on one with little regard for the rules. For your information, the charter client is liable to a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00 USD), or to imprisonment for a term of 1 year, or to both such fine and imprisonment for using a Nation Park Mooring for overnight use. This law is highlighted in the HYC “Skipper’s Hand Book” on each one of our yachts. The wording of the law seems extreme and I doubt that anyone would be imprisoned nor taken to full fine, but we would be remiss not to tell our clients the letter of the law.
OUT OF BOUNDS AREAS IGNORED: It is interesting that the client maintained that he did not get a chart briefing. Chart briefings high light the good spots as well as no go zones. Eustacia Sound is one of those no go zones for our yachts due to insurance reasons. (Explore Eustacia with your dinghy please). There are two independent GPS chartplotters fitted to Double Expresso. Both were laying out continuous track lines of where the boat had gone during the charter. Interestingly enough, one tracking line was deleted, evidently to hide the fact that Double Expresso had gone into Eustacia Sound. Our guess is that the client did not realize that the other GPS was independent. The other GPS, tracking not deleted, clearly shows the transiting East of Saba Rock and around through into Eustacia sound. This is also covered in the Departure Check Out form that the client signed. They also underlined this particular no-go-zone on that form.
CEILING FALLING DOWN: This was not mentioned at debrief nor reported whilst on charter. Our shipwright refitted it the port forward ceiling during his charter checks. Unfortunately the shipwright is now on holiday so I am unaware of the specific problem here. He just reports on his daily work sheet “refit ceiling panel”. The panel is secured by industrial type Velcro so that it can be removed easily to access wiring etc

In summary, since Irma in September 2017, the Horizon Staff have delivered nothing short of a miracle and worked diligently combining the rebuild effort with regular charter operations. Double Expresso has been out on 13 charters this season and up until this one charter we have met and exceeded our guests’ expectations.

We do appreciate the opportunity to address our clients concerns. Whilst the above may well come off as defensive, it was done with great care to the truth and speaking with every staff member involved. I took time to make sure this reply was honest and that was the only reason for any delay in rebuttal. It is regrettable that the clients chose not to deal with these complaints whilst they were here and with their charter company directly. Our team thought throughout the charter that the client was satisfied with the remedies provided. At the very least, we would have thought that if a client was unhappy with their charter they would have said so at the end, during debrief. Especially if they were this unhappy. When things don’t go well on charter we do our level best to remedy them during charter. As someone who spoke with the client during his charter, there is a disconnect between the person I spoke to and the person that wrote this condemnation. I am sincere when I say that I am glad that they have come down to the BVI to support the country during a challenging time and enjoy our islands and water. They have chartered in the BVI 4 times, each time with a different charter company. As they love the BVI, I do hope they find a charter company they love equally. We would of course welcome them back to Horizon in the hope of an opportunity to give them a flawless charter the next time they visit.
Sincerely,
The Horizon Yacht Charters Team

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167893
08/16/2018 05:42 PM
08/16/2018 05:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Hilton Head, SC
Steve27 Offline
Traveler
Steve27  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 285
Hilton Head, SC
Hmmm... Crickets from WineFusion


Cruising the local waters here in SC and GA. Love the BVIs and miss the Tradewinds!
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167898
08/16/2018 09:58 PM
08/16/2018 09:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 80
NJ USA
M
mcevog Offline
Traveler
mcevog  Offline
Traveler
M
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 80
NJ USA
WineFusion - please don't charter my boat!

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167906
08/17/2018 07:47 AM
08/17/2018 07:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 418
Georgia & South Carolina
D
Deepcut Offline
Traveler
Deepcut  Offline
Traveler
D
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 418
Georgia & South Carolina
Can't please all the people all the time
and some people you can NEVER please.

I agree with mcevog, PLEASE don't charter my boat.


Wes
s/v Sea Tiger (Lagoon 42)
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167910
08/17/2018 08:03 AM
08/17/2018 08:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
C
Catmandu Offline
Traveler
Catmandu  Offline
Traveler
C
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
Per WineFusion paid $6,500 for a week
Per Horizon received $5,545 for 10 days

Could one of you edit your post to reflect the truth.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: Deepcut] #167914
08/17/2018 08:22 AM
08/17/2018 08:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,535
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
Traveler
warren460  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,535
Ontario, Canada
That's why I said that I was surprised that horizon would invite them back. Winefusion, please don't charter our boat either.

Last edited by warren460; 08/17/2018 08:22 AM.

Warren
S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 450
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167916
08/17/2018 09:05 AM
08/17/2018 09:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,732
VIRGINIA
B
BEERMAN Offline
Traveler
BEERMAN  Offline
Traveler
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,732
VIRGINIA
Devil is in the details! I appreciate that Horizon took the time to respond professionally on a public forum. We have never used HYC, but will consider in the future.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: WineFusion] #167929
08/17/2018 10:00 AM
08/17/2018 10:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 80
Buffalo, NY
paw Offline
Traveler
paw  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 80
Buffalo, NY
I've chartered with Horizon multiple times - must be in the double digits by now. I've always had nothing but positive experiences with them. I welcome a full chart briefing each charter - you never know what's changed or who's got the best BBQ. Equipment has always worked as expected and if things go wrong, as they sometimes do, issues are remedied quickly. I've always appreciated outstanding customer service, not feeling like a number but feeling like a valued customer, from booking to yacht return.


Paul

"Their freezin' up in Buffalo, stuck in their cars and I'm lying here 'neath the sun and the stars" ... JB
Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: warren460] #167930
08/17/2018 10:04 AM
08/17/2018 10:04 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 187
SF Bay Area
O
OneEyedJack Offline
Traveler
OneEyedJack  Offline
Traveler
O
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 187
SF Bay Area
I think there may have been a typo - it's WhineFusion.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charters Fail [Re: OneEyedJack] #167943
08/17/2018 11:27 AM
08/17/2018 11:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 66,597
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
Traveler
Carol_Hill  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 66,597
Central Florida!
All righty then. I think this one is done.


Carol Hill

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1