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Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 #77007
12/02/2015 04:03 PM
12/02/2015 04:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 71,155
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline OP
Traveler
Carol_Hill  Offline OP
Traveler
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 71,155
Central Florida!
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Carol Hill
SXM Sponsors
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Carol_Hill] #77008
12/02/2015 04:39 PM
12/02/2015 04:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,700
Auburn, WA
SXMScubaman Offline
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SXMScubaman  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,700
Auburn, WA
Looks like a little water retention problem they have to fix.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: SXMScubaman] #77009
12/02/2015 04:45 PM
12/02/2015 04:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
ruralcarrier Offline
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ruralcarrier  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
Lots of rain of late.


J.D.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: SXMScubaman] #77010
12/02/2015 05:04 PM
12/02/2015 05:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 870
Boston, MA
iscrogr Offline
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iscrogr  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 870
Boston, MA
Yes, this was Tuesday, rained off and on for most of the morning

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Carol_Hill] #77011
12/02/2015 05:40 PM
12/02/2015 05:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 993
Pittsburgh PA
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plequerre Offline
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plequerre  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 993
Pittsburgh PA
Thanks for the update. Glad to see that everything should be ready for the 2016 Regatta. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: plequerre] #77012
12/02/2015 08:16 PM
12/02/2015 08:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
ruralcarrier Offline
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ruralcarrier  Offline
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Posts: 15,200
Ohio
Quote
plequerre said:
Thanks for the update. Glad to see that everything should be ready for the 2016 Regatta. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />


Depending on the winter construction season, that might be a reach!


J.D.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Carol_Hill] #77013
12/02/2015 08:23 PM
12/02/2015 08:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Boston, Ma
L
lobstaroll123 Offline
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lobstaroll123  Offline
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L
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Boston, Ma
Take Paradise and put up a parking lot. Looks like Disney World. Sorry for the negativity but it really upsets me that the cater to the cruise people when those of us who go to SXM years and years in a row get to feel like we are on a Disney out island.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: lobstaroll123] #77014
12/02/2015 08:30 PM
12/02/2015 08:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
ruralcarrier Offline
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ruralcarrier  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
How is this catering to the cruise people? I am willing to bet the vast majority of repeat visitors to SXM first went there on a cruise.


J.D.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: ruralcarrier] #77015
12/02/2015 08:41 PM
12/02/2015 08:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,700
Auburn, WA
SXMScubaman Offline
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SXMScubaman  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,700
Auburn, WA
That's how we first found SXM. After five stops there we decided to vacation there and stay for ten days. Now its four weeks.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: lobstaroll123] #77016
12/02/2015 09:20 PM
12/02/2015 09:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,765
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PelicanPirate Offline
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PelicanPirate  Offline
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Posts: 1,765
I'll take the middle road here. I was a cruiser first, air visitor second and multiple cruise visitor thereafter and will be back by air very soon to see first hand. And while I was not exactly impressed with the old shacks and they could each stand to be replaced, these do look better but cookie cutter and a bit like an out island make believe spot as mentioned. Maybe that impression will fade away once the tenants move in and crowds show up. I hope so. We'll see if organized cruise buses are filling the lots and eating the standard chosen meal as opposed to individuals in cabs and rentals. I love cruisers just not cruise excursions in many cases. "And now on the right you'll see what was Club Orient", please enjoy your watered rum punch and enjoy a 15 minute swim before we haul you back thru Marigot for your trinket shopping". Sorry to be cynical.

Last edited by PelicanPirate; 12/02/2015 10:42 PM.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: PelicanPirate] #77017
12/02/2015 09:24 PM
12/02/2015 09:24 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 71,155
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline OP
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Carol_Hill  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 71,155
Central Florida!
Sorry, I have to say that a large percentage of the visitors before were cruise visitors, which is not a bad thing. People say 'cruise visitors', like it's some kind of a plague..

Overall, I think the project will be an improvement for the beach. Meantime, the previous lessees of the restaurants are getting royally scr*wed, still closed as of December 2, and no end in sight...


Carol Hill
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: lobstaroll123] #77018
12/02/2015 10:03 PM
12/02/2015 10:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Boston, Ma
L
lobstaroll123 Offline
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lobstaroll123  Offline
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L
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Boston, Ma
Some business owners spent thousand of dollars and lots of work hours getting their businesses up and running for last year's season after Gustavo. Some upgraded to much nicer restaurant venues all for not. And now, some may not even be back. The comment about the cruisers came from many posts about catering to the cruisers. In fact, a few restaurants closed when there a few or no cruise ships in port. Again, take Paradise and put up a parking lot.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: SXMScubaman] #77019
12/02/2015 10:05 PM
12/02/2015 10:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Boston, Ma
L
lobstaroll123 Offline
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lobstaroll123  Offline
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L
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 397
Boston, Ma
I would love to know how many many who first came to SXM stay on the Dutch side as opposed to the French side. Would love to know trending info.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: lobstaroll123] #77020
12/03/2015 01:54 AM
12/03/2015 01:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 116
E
eskimo888 Offline
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eskimo888  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 116
We are heading back in April part of the attraction were the slap together buildings and different Color paint
This cookie cutter approach and modernization is not appealing to me what so ever. Most likely won't step foot in a door
As far as I'm concerned the Orient Beach we came to love over the years is ruined. Just my opinion

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: eskimo888] #77021
12/03/2015 05:45 AM
12/03/2015 05:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 236
Near Chattanooga, Tn.
M
MORWAVES Offline
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MORWAVES  Offline
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Posts: 236
Near Chattanooga, Tn.
Why would someone go to a place they have never been to before and stay for a week or more when they can go on a cruise to check the place out first? And Rural when is the winter construction period in a place like St. Martin? LOL Just wondering.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: MORWAVES] #77022
12/03/2015 06:14 AM
12/03/2015 06:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,614
Southern Maryland suburbs of D...
Bill_S Offline
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Bill_S  Offline
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Posts: 2,614
Southern Maryland suburbs of D...
Right! So the daytime highs are only in the high 80s instead of the mid 90s... And the impact on construction is...???

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />


Bill
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Bill_S] #77023
12/03/2015 07:04 AM
12/03/2015 07:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,466
Rhode Island
RonDon Offline
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RonDon  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,466
Rhode Island
First saw Orient 1980 no shops or eateries, no Club Orient. Then things changed. Some didn't like it. Now it's changing again and some won't like it. For newcomers it will be just great. Those of us who got "used to" buildings in paradise will get used to the new buildings.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: MORWAVES] #77024
12/03/2015 07:05 AM
12/03/2015 07:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
ruralcarrier Offline
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ruralcarrier  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
The comment about the winter construction season was totally in jest for anyone who could not figure that out.

For those opposed to this project and who have concerns about the prior business owners....how many of you, IF ANY, have done anything more than voice a concern and opinion on TTOL? Any contact with the French government of the island? We all have the right and option to voice an opinion but unless you go to the source of the decision making process you will have little if any impact.


J.D.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Carol_Hill] #77025
12/03/2015 07:09 AM
12/03/2015 07:09 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 870
Boston, MA
iscrogr Offline
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iscrogr  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 870
Boston, MA
I have meet some great folks from cruises, so have nothing against a "cruiser" per say, it's just the large, and ever increasing number of cruise ships that now stop here.
In other words, it's the volume, not the person.
In regards to the shops, I too long for the old days, yet change will happen. I would not discriminate against a place of business, just because they are in one of the "new" shops. Not their fault, probably not their desire either. In a few years, these shops will become a little weathered, and start to fit right in, and some future generation will bemoan some other spoiling of the island.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: iscrogr] #77026
12/03/2015 07:27 AM
12/03/2015 07:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
ruralcarrier Offline
Traveler
ruralcarrier  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
With regards to cruise ships, the island built a new pier and the island WANTS cruise ships to come, it is $$$$!!! The number can be overwhelming, just like with the mess they create around Sunset and Maho Beach. We as tourists, visitors, timeshare owners, etc. can really do nothing about it. Perhaps a letter or email to government officials MIGHT get some attention but I seriously doubt it. About the only voice we have is through our choice to either continue to visit the island and spend $$$ there or not to do so.


J.D.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: iscrogr] #77027
12/03/2015 08:14 AM
12/03/2015 08:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,001
Cape Cod
whammy Offline
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whammy  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,001
Cape Cod
We've met great people from the ships too! I do get put off by some of the loud groups, cruisers or not.
Back to the construction at Orient - I do hope some "weathering" will help, but I'm afraid I'll always miss the funky beach-bar feel. Right now it looks like a new outdoor mini mall. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Sad.gif" alt="" />

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: whammy] #77028
12/03/2015 09:57 AM
12/03/2015 09:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 186
J
JulieandKarl Offline
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JulieandKarl  Offline
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J
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 186
"Little boxes on the (beach)side
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky
Little boxes on the (beach)lside
Little boxes all the same
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same"

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: lobstaroll123] #77029
12/03/2015 10:03 AM
12/03/2015 10:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,113
CT
pony600 Offline
Traveler
pony600  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,113
CT
We 1st stayed on the Dutch side some 20+ years ago because that's where the travel agents booked Americans. We ended up at the French side for the beaches during the day, back to out hotel to clean up, then back to the French side for dinner. After 2 years of this routine, we "got brave" and stayed at Mont Vernon, which was a very nice, very French, hotel back then.We've been staying on the French side ever since.


[Linked Image]



If life hands you a lemon, just squeeze it on a lobster!
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: MORWAVES] #77030
12/03/2015 11:13 AM
12/03/2015 11:13 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,957
New Brunswick & Quebec, Canada
MarcG Offline
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MarcG  Offline
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,957
New Brunswick & Quebec, Canada
Quote
MORWAVES said:
Why would someone go to a place they have never been to before and stay for a week or more when they can go on a cruise to check the place out first? And Rural when is the winter construction period in a place like St. Martin? LOL Just wondering.


We have made 15+ visites to SXM, and never went there on a cruise before deciding to visit for weekly visits....and I'm sure we are not the only ones



[Linked Image]
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: MarcG] #77031
12/03/2015 12:00 PM
12/03/2015 12:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 303
Woodland Pk N J
madg1108 Offline
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madg1108  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 303
Woodland Pk N J
I don't understand what the fuss is all about...We have been coming to St Martin for about 20 years and we love it !!! It's true that Orient has gone through some changes,and I think it has always improved.On our two week stay we usually go to Orient four or five times but if I didn't like what was going on with the new restaurants.....I would go to one of the other many many beautiful beaches on the island and I'm sure you would find something you like.For me,I can't wait to go back to Orient in Feb. and enjoy the beach and warm sunshine!!!

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: madg1108] #77032
12/03/2015 12:06 PM
12/03/2015 12:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,700
Auburn, WA
SXMScubaman Offline
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SXMScubaman  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 11,700
Auburn, WA
The changes only effect a small part of the Orient Beach stretch. I don't understand the concerns many of you have regarding this. If you don't like the changes on that part of the beach go to another beach or another part of Orient Beach.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: SXMScubaman] #77033
12/03/2015 12:47 PM
12/03/2015 12:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 45
Montreal
mlachance Offline
Traveler
mlachance  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 45
Montreal
Maybe they should have just left them as they were...

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: mlachance] #77034
12/03/2015 01:01 PM
12/03/2015 01:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 71,155
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline OP
Traveler
Carol_Hill  Offline OP
Traveler
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 71,155
Central Florida!
<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ok, that is somewhat cheating, as those pictures are immediately post Gonzalo and the restaurants all did a major cleanup before they were forced to close in June. But even before Gonzalo, most were not very attractive to me.


Carol Hill
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Carol_Hill] #77035
12/03/2015 01:25 PM
12/03/2015 01:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 303
Woodland Pk N J
madg1108 Offline
Traveler
madg1108  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 303
Woodland Pk N J
Hopefully this won't happen to the new ones...

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: madg1108] #77036
12/03/2015 07:56 PM
12/03/2015 07:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,294
J
january Offline
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january  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,294
Lets get further off subject. With the demise of the beach bars on Orient, the only original beach shack design left on the island is the red, white and blue place on the way up the hill overlooking Cole Bay and Simpson Bay Lagoon. It is called Bethlehem ( or something close to that) and should have a Guinness world record for worst grammar and syntax on a business sign. I wish I remembered this place when people were saying the new buildings would be blown away with the first good wind. The shack on the hill has been there forever. Columbus probably saw through his telescope as he passed by. But it has come through every storm no matter how strong without a scratch. Maybe builder on the Island should study its construction methods.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: PelicanPirate] #77037
12/03/2015 08:12 PM
12/03/2015 08:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 26
Block Island, Rhode Island
lizzied2003 Offline
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lizzied2003  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 26
Block Island, Rhode Island
hello all!
are those pictures from today ? does anyone know how orange fever faired? thanks!



[Linked Image]
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: SXMScubaman] #77038
12/03/2015 08:30 PM
12/03/2015 08:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,001
Cape Cod
whammy Offline
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whammy  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,001
Cape Cod
We go to that part of the beach because we've been visiting Leandra's from our very first stay, and she has become a dear friend. She and Zelman are our "draw". We're there almost every day for lunch and beach time. Hopefully she'll be coming back, we'll find out mid-April. Will be interested to see what the "vibe" is on Orient by then.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: lizzied2003] #77039
12/03/2015 08:49 PM
12/03/2015 08:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
ruralcarrier Offline
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ruralcarrier  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 15,200
Ohio
The pictures of the destruction are NOT from today.


J.D.
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: ruralcarrier] #77040
12/03/2015 09:49 PM
12/03/2015 09:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 507
Rbailey Offline
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Rbailey  Offline
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Posts: 507
What usually happens to any little-known location with special qualities is that a few people who are especially attracted to its features talk about it, more people are attracted, entrepreneurs set up to take advantage of the opportunity to provide services, still more people hear about it and want to experience what it offers, but maybe with a bit more convenience and services, and eventually its reputation for being special brings in so many people that the qualities that made it special in the first place no longer exist. It may still be an attractive location, but for quite different reasons than those that made it special in the first place. That’s pretty much what happened to Orient and to a large degree to the island in general.
My opinion – Orient was still special in 1989 [Linked Image]
but the “end” was in sight [Linked Image]

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: Rbailey] #77041
12/03/2015 10:09 PM
12/03/2015 10:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,690
Brookfield, CT.
pat Offline
Traveler
pat  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 12,690
Brookfield, CT.
Quote
Rbailey said:
What usually happens to any little-known location with special qualities is that a few people who are especially attracted to its features talk about it, more people are attracted, entrepreneurs set up to take advantage of the opportunity to provide services, still more people hear about it and want to experience what it offers, but maybe with a bit more convenience and services, and eventually its reputation for being special brings in so many people that the qualities that made it special in the first place no longer exist. It may still be an attractive location, but for quite different reasons than those that made it special in the first place. That’s pretty much what happened to Orient and to a large degree to the island in general.
My opinion – Orient was still special in 1989 [Linked Image]
but the “end” was in sight [Linked Image]


Perhaps one of the very best analogies I've seen so far. I'm sure the people who knew Orient in the sixties thought Pedro and Club O brought ruin to their favorite spot in the 70s just as we felt that same ruin in the 80's and as so many have since then.

It is what it is, folks, and those who come down the road will probably love it just as we did 'back in the day' as we scratch our heads and ask WHY?!


Respectfully,

pat



"Always keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you have to eat
them."
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: MORWAVES] #77042
12/03/2015 11:55 PM
12/03/2015 11:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 508
On the Oz side of the Kansas C...
dave Offline
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dave  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 508
On the Oz side of the Kansas C...
I have chosen to never travel on a floating petri dish. Went to SXM the first time in 1989, having never been there before, or anywhere south of the Bahamas. Good decision, and I've been several other places I've never been to before on a cruise as well. Life is an adventure.


[b][color:"green"]dave[/color]
Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: dave] #77043
12/04/2015 12:05 AM
12/04/2015 12:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 46
Raleigh, NC
R
RaleighToSXM Offline
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RaleighToSXM  Offline
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R
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 46
Raleigh, NC
Quote
dave said:
I have chosen to never travel on a floating petri dish...


Not to spoil your fun, but an airplane is no less of a petri dish. But with only 200 people on board, if 10% (2 people) get a cold or other bug passed to them, no one ever hears about it. But let 10% of a cruise ship get sick (200 to 500 people) and it makes all of the news sources. It's all about numbers.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: january] #77044
12/04/2015 08:37 AM
12/04/2015 08:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 150
NH
D
DrDoug Offline
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DrDoug  Offline
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D
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 150
NH
Yes, that is Himels and he has a sub name as well, Bethel.
He apparently spent his time playing his piano there as Luis had his visit in 1995. Amazing.
Years ago I stopped in for a cold beer in the afternoon, and his helper was sound asleep and I couldn't wake him. So, I took the beers and told my wife that I'd go back later and pay. So, 2 days later I stopped in and Himel was there and I explained what happened. He reached into the cooler and said did you get Heineken, I said yes. He then handed 2 to me and said enjoy. He wouldn't take any money and said I was an honest man and should be rewarded.
Needless to say, I stop in every year now.

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: DrDoug] #77045
12/04/2015 10:26 AM
12/04/2015 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 993
Pittsburgh PA
P
plequerre Offline
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plequerre  Offline
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P
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 993
Pittsburgh PA
Quote
DrDoug said:
Yes, that is Himels and he has a sub name as well, Bethel.
He apparently spent his time playing his piano there as Luis had his visit in 1995. Amazing.
Years ago I stopped in for a cold beer in the afternoon, and his helper was sound asleep and I couldn't wake him. So, I took the beers and told my wife that I'd go back later and pay. So, 2 days later I stopped in and Himel was there and I explained what happened. He reached into the cooler and said did you get Heineken, I said yes. He then handed 2 to me and said enjoy. He wouldn't take any money and said I was an honest man and should be rewarded.
Needless to say, I stop in every year now.


Great story, thanks for sharing. I like Heineken too. What time in the afternoon is the helper sleeping you said? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Orient pictures from iscrogr 12-1-15 [Re: plequerre] #77046
12/04/2015 10:50 AM
12/04/2015 10:50 AM
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paul2pam Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
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As Yogi Berra Said: "No one goes there nowadays, it’s too crowded." <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

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