Service charges at restaurants. Please clarify?

Can someone please clarify for me? If a restaurant adds a 15% service charge, as I've heard here many do, are you still expected to tip?

..doesn't matter what they EXPECT, as far as I'm concerned, if there is a 15% addition to the bill, that's all they get from me.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> i agree absolutely, Carol, and the truth is, if it wasn't added in advance, our tips would generally be substantially higher. I truly resent the idea of being dictated to and also, in the very rare occasion it might happen, I hate having to tip for inferior service. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

Us too, if it is in fact good service, we tip higher than 15% usually. Auto tip results in poorer service, in almost all cases.

This whole tipping thing has gotten out of hand especially in the USA. I would rather pay more from the start and have the business owner pay a fair wage. If the worker doesn't perform or customers complain about service the worker could loose it's job. How simple would that be. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks all. My husband is a notorious over-tipper. For a really great meal and service, he'll often leave 25%. What a way to shoot yourself in the foot.

On the French side, the service is included in the menu price, unless the MENU specifically states otherwise (service non compris). No additional tip is required, but you may leave a small amount in cash if you felt the service was excellent. On the Dutch side, if there's a service charge added, that's the tip.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />

...and "service charge" of 15% is the same as a "tax" of 15%...it's the tip

Its not that simple to just fire someone. You could get hit with an unemployment claim which drives up your Unemployment Insurance rates and leads to higher costs.

We're still talking about this, huh? But you've given the most succinct explanation: kudos!
That should make it clear for everyone (and don't bother asking the server).

BTW, you mention "unless the menu specifically states 'service non compris' .... once, at Sol e Luna, the check clearly stated prix nets (service compris). My companions that evening were (like us) good tippers and had been going there for years and become friendly with the owners.
The owner/daughter didn't realize that I speak French and when I mentioned to her that the tip was included, she replied "Oh, no, that's just how the check is printed". What??? She obviously was accustomed to my companions overtipping on the already included tip. Last time I went there.

What makes you think there is unemployment insurance in SXM? In the US, tipping works, generally very good service or they won't be in business long. SXMscuba, servers wages have always been lower then minimum wage. Raising the tipped employee minimum wage would increase menu prices 25+%. a tough pill to swallow for some, and then you would still tip

We once received a check with "service not included" rubber-stamped on the check. I was livid, but rather than make a scene, we just paid the check and left no additional tip. Sadly, had that not been on our check we probably would have left a small pour boire for our server. We also have not returned to that restaurant.

Reread my post. I'm saying do away with tipping all together and pay all employees a fair living wage. Again, if they do not perform to the employers liking, replace them. Pretty simple.

So, if I'm reading this right, if you dine on the French side, you should just leave a few bucks if it was good service and call it a meal? Do the servers get ticked off when they think an American big tipper doesn't? Are they so conditioned to expect a tip out of N. American clients? Or do they go about their business as they would in Europe?

If the North Americans train them to be ticked off on the French side for North Americans not giving more, then they will be.

Normally it just ticks me off for them trying to take advantage of me.

And for those from North America for some reason think they have to leave a humongous tip, it just makes it harder for the wait staff to understand why I didn't. I don't like to feel like I am being screwed, I don't like being screwed and I don't like to being put in this kind of situation while I am on vacation. My vacation time is a precious happy time for me and I am not going to spend my vacation time second guessing on tips. If in doubt I don't leave any. It is up to the food establishment to make me feel comfortable while I spend my dollars at their place.

SXM??? Wendell

I've never had a server get ticked off when I didn't leave an American-style tip. But yes, many times they do expect it, because so many Americans don't understand the tipping system in France, and tip as they would in the US. That's why you don't ask if the tip is included, as they will say no. And technically, that is true, as service and tip are two different things in France. The tip is that dollar or two you'll leave in cash. The service is included in the menu price.

It was probably rubber stamped because they charge some (Americans, who are accustomed to tipping well) but not others (French). We had this happen at the former Le Frigate in Oyster Pond. Big red letters: TIP NOT INCLUDED. Followed by 2 handwritten !!. A young French couple that was staying at the same place as we overheard my questioning it, and said that they weren't charged. That's why we avoid places that do this. As previously stated, 15% added to the price you expected to pay is a tip. Le Frigate's explanation of the 15%: "That's so we can sweep the floor and change the table cloth".

Sail2Wind, as someone who spent all my early years in the food service business, and was taught to tip generously, but also as someone who's been to parts of the world where tipping is not the norm, I've got to say that the USA's tipping system does NOT work. Try living on the less than minimum wages that many servers have to live on because tips are assumed. And to boot, taxes are paid on assumed tips that sometimes don't show up. The USA needs to raise its minimum wage for all employees, especially those subject to the Federal $2.30 an hour that tipped employees get in many states. The cost of my being served at a restaurant should be part of the price I see and then pay on the menu. If you want to add sales tax to that, fine, but that needs to be printed on the menu as well. Personally I like what I saw in Australia, the menu price was it, totally it, food, service and tax. A small tip could be left for exceptional service, that waiter that made you smile, that waiter that changes an order after you ordered something you don't like, etc. But nothing extra should be expected for someone who performs his basic job, other than the wage his/her employer pays. And that should be paid out of the price on the menu. It's not my job to make the waitstaff happy, it's the employer's job to keep his staff happy, so that they keep the customers happy. And good STABLE, not based on the whim of the night's customers, will do that.

Sorry SXMscuba, Wilson made the unemployment statement. As far as firing someone, it's very easy in Colorado, it's a right to work state. One written warning and then termination.

helpful post....that's how I will approach it.....as if I'm in France, a few bucks for good service, and that's it. They will have to screw with someone else.

We've beaten this one to death.
I think most of us don't like the idea of 15% being imposed upon us as restaurant patrons. Most of us are generous (or at least fair) tippers when the food and service are very good. The problem arises when it is not. Most of us will not cause an awkward scene with restaurant management but will simply not return nor recommend the restaurant to others. I think this is still the most effective course of action.

The current system in Sint Maarten is called Cessantia, which is a one time payment based on length of service. However, they are considering a unemployment benefit system which would have premiums fully paid by the employer and pay the employee 70% of their past years salary. It is very hard to fire a permanent employee in Sint Maarten. Some employers use labor contracts to get around the rules. But the courts still find the employers liable and they are forced to pay back pay.

According to our Australian relatives, wait staff in Australia make well over $20/hour! When they're here every year they have to re-adjust to American tipping practices!

Thanks for the info on the unemployment insurance. Didn't know that, but I sure knew that it is almost impossible to fire an employee in SXM.

Well said Wendell. Couple of years ago 4 of us ate at Greenhouse in P'Burg. The service was atrocious! We left no tip. The waitress ran after us to parking lot yelling obscenities at us "cheap B-tards" I turned, said the establishment had gotten the 15 % added and in my opinion should not have gotten it. I suggested we go to the owner and plead our cases. She stormed off. Needless to say we have not returned to Greenhouse.

I thought the Greenhouse was one of the restaurants that do not add the 15%. We usually stop there for appetizers and Happy Hour 2/1 drinks and I thought that they actually have a note in the menu that states that there is no 15% add on.

We have eaten at the Greenhouse in Phillipsburg many times. Have always had good service and no SC on our bill.

Every time we'd eaten there in the past (going back prior to the last 3 years, there had been the 15% charge. Possibly, they have removed it?

Also back in 1980 at the old Sonesta (pre fire) at the table next to us a man was screaming insisting he wanted the 15% charge taken off bill because service was terrible. So some places have added it for years.

Bad service doesn't deserve a tip.


The 1st time we ate at L'Estiminet in Grand Case with another couple, the other male in our party didn't want to leave any extra because of the tip included. I didn't remember seeing anything on the menu saying it was or it wasn't. Next day hubby & I drove by the restaurant saw Carol outside so we stopped and I offered her money saying we failed to express how great her service was to us the evening before. She was so humble about it. Nice lady, great service! That's when you don't mind tipping!

On the French side, if the menu is silent to the fact, then the service is included. However, we have never had service on the French side that didn't warrant an additional tip, especially at L'Estaminet.

Wendle has nailed it with his thoughts!

BobandJeana

The bottom line is if you order something for $20, service included or not, that's the price you agreed on. If the establishment charges you $23 for the same item, then they're just plain taking advantage of you. If everyone avoided those places that do, and they know the reason why, they'd stop this practice. Dine somewhere else, and enjoy your vacation.

But, GaKaye, the incident at Sol e Luna to which I referred had Prix Nets (Service Compris) actually printed on the check. Clearly the tip WAS included, but the daughter/owner tired to convince me that this was not so - because our dinner companions often dined there, didn't understand French, and always tipped over 20% on top of the already tip included total. That infuriated me. Our friends still wanted to tip, so I agreed - and decided to never return.

The confusion is that you are calling it a tip to the waitress. In the waitresses mind "tip" was not included but service was. You asked about "tip" not service. Had you asked about service being included the answer probably would have been yes.

I did understand that your incident was the opposite; it just reminded me of my experience.

Not to belabor the point ... and I promise to end the discussion here <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />, but your assumption is incorrect ... our conversation was in French, so the word "tip" was not used (in either language).

Her insistence was that the "printer" added the "service compris", but that the service was not included <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

Last year, something unique to Sol & Luna happened to us for our Valentine's Day dinner there. Our CC was charged 20% more than the amount of the check. When I discovered it while checking my CC transactions online, I emailed the owner who replied to me that it was his bank who was charging 20% more, not them, that it was temporary and that I should be credited of the difference in a few days. It sounded very strange to me that a bank would do that. I called my CC Company and indeed they refunded me of the difference without any difficulty. I wonder what would have happened if I didn't notice the discrepancy.
No other SXM restaurant ever charged me more than the amount of the signed CC receipt, not even temporarily so this was a very unpleasant discovery.
I will add that I left a small "pourboire" of $5 in cash on the table, knowing that service was included. Who knows if they didn't decide to "pad the bill" since my tip was small.

I thought it was by law that the service is included on the French side. I sometimes get the feeling that only Americans get the "no service included" on their checks in some establishments. The French tourists know better. I feel betrayed when I see that on my check on the French side.

Anymore I don't spend that much time worrying over things like this. I just dispute the all charge when I pay the statement then let the place worry about trying to get paid. Then maybe the will learn.

SXM??? Wendell

I hear you and I agree with you. It is very unpleasant and I hate being gouged by businesses.

I was born and raised in France so I know the Law there and I don't buy the BS given to me by some restaurants in SXM, Sol & Luna being one of them.

It is a shame because the food and service at Sol & Luna was excellent but this behavior left a very bad taste in our mouth.
Consequently, this year, we didn't return, although there's a new owner, and we went to Ocean 82 instead.

I posted a couple of weeks ago that early February, Pineapple Pete told me, after I asked specifically the question, that service was included in their bill although they are on the Dutch side. Is it because I spoke in French with the manager who is from Quebec?Apparently other people who went to Pineapple Pete were told something different.
It don't understand why it is so difficult for these businesses to have a very clear policy regarding service/gratuity and apply it consistently with all customers.
They should know that nowadays, it is very easy for people to post stuff on social medias, and it doesn't take long to seriously damage a reputation. Oh well, it's their problem, not mine.

Heaven knows this topic has been about beaten to death but I'm not sure why, on the Dutch side at PPs or anywhere else, would you NOT know the charge has been added to a check.

Generally speaking, if a s/c or whatever is added, it's usually so noted on the menus but if not, and I'm presented with my bill and noted a charge on it I couldn't identify, I'd ask to have the charge clarified.

At that point, if they tell me it's a tax, tip, gratuity, service charge or any other name they want to give it beyond something we actually consumed in the course of our meal, its a tip to me and I'm done. Am I over-simplifying this? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

Pat,

Because, and I apologize for having forgotten this important detail, the bill at Pineapple Pete mentioned "15% tax".
It's only after I specifically asked the waitress what was this 15% tax about that she told me, "it's service".
Hmmm..... thanks for telling me what it actually is, but what if I didn't ask?

Like I said, businesses should be more upfront and honest about service because at the end of the day, they'll be the big losers when their patrons discover that they've been taken for a ride and they'll post about it on high traffic social media sites.

This topic always gets lots of views and emotions when it's posted. I would suggest this is one issue that could be factually summarized and saved as an FAQ which would save a lot of frustration.

For us, after a couple bad experiences, we rarely eat on the French side now because of the uncertainty of proper tipping practice and etiquette as well as questionable restaurant ethics as mentioned above. As we all know, there's some great food to enjoy and that's what I want to do, rather than spending time figuring out what each restaurant's practices really are so I can tip properly and not be taken advantage of.

As I think I've said before, if someone would like to draft some answers to some FAQ's we can look at them, but the answers need to be agreed upon and up to date. I personally just don't have the time to write and revise them. If someone wants to volunteer to write them, we can take a look at it.

Nor should you have to do it. Are there any frequent board users / SXM travelers that could take 10 minutes to write up something factual and succinct on this that could be submitted and saved as an FAQ?

Honestly, you know we had this discussion before, and so far no one has expressed any interest in doing it, to me.

I seem to recall something posted in detail a couple of years ago by Philippe, (I think that's his name, ) from Tabba Kaddy, Perhaps now at Capt Olivers.

At the time it seemed very succinct, informative to me but I never printed it out and I don't know how it could be searched for on this forum after such a long time.

Posts that are older than a year, except for trip reports, are automatically purged and deleted by the system.

Well said, and I wholeheartedly agree. If there is a 15% add on -- that's their tip plain and simple.

The problem is: What if the service is bad?

SXM??? Wendell

Recently returned from SXM, dined each night in Orient Village, prior to leaving I posted a question on this site asking if a $2-$5 gratuity would be sufficient, the moderator graciously replied with the answer that yes, $2-$5 would work. Each evening we left $5 and the waiters/waitresses seemed more than satisfied. Contrast that with a previous stay at Club O where the servers at Papagayo made dining a very uncomfortable experience if we didn't leave the obligatory $20 for typical $100-$120 meal... won't go into details because I have posted the specifics before on this site but talk about being shaken down!

What if the service was great but something else was bad? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Wink.gif" alt="" />

If the service was good then the tip amount should not be affected. This is true back in the states as well. Wait staff is not responsible for anything but service.

But what if the server had prior knowledge that the food the customer ordered has been bad and didn't tell the patron? Serving the food was done in an acceptable manor but an injustice to not warn the customer results in a not so enjoyable meal. What then?

Credit cards add 20% to all restaurant charges to cover the tip. Note you give the card to server the charge the card and leave a line for a tip. Once the tip in posted. the correct amount is posted to account. If you look online in your account prior to tip being posted all restaurant changes will have a 20% "precharge" added by the credit card company.

Just pay in cash and don't pay the added SC. What can they do? You won't want to go back anyway. Leave the money and walk out. If confronted by the waiter let them know why you didn't pay the SC. Maybe the server will get it.

I've never seen my credit card add 20%. They hold the original posted amount, then finalize based on the tip added, assuming one is added.

How could you possibly know what the server knows, unless they confess to you "Yes, I knew the meat was putrid, but I served it to you anyway, so don't leave me a tip". <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

Me and a friend ordered chili in a restaurant. On both our first bite we noticed it was burnt. Mentioned this to out waitress. She said that was what the last 2 customers said and walked off. She didn't offer to give us something else OR remove the price of the chili from our bill.

SXM??? Wendell

Pardon me but I speak from experience. I have had waitstaff tell me after the fact that the meal I was served and sent back was indeed not the best. That the cook was new and there were prior complaints the same night for the same meal. A double duh to you. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

Well, double duh, did you leave them a tip or did you walk out?

It's common practice for the pre-authorization to include an amount for the tip. Normally, you just don't see it on your end.

This actually happened to us on the island. The authorization was more than the restaurant charge, but when it went through, the actual charge was for the correct amount. It's not unusual anywhere, and certainly not fraudulent.

I fail to understand why a restaurant would need a CC hold for an amount higher than what the customer agrees to.
It's not like a hotel or a car rental company who requests a card at check-in and finalizes the transaction at check-out when they know the final amount.
The only time a restaurant touches a Customer CC is when he pays the bill, and whether what he pays includes a tip or not, doesn't justify a special hold, much less of an arbitrary 20% extra.

In the case of this Sol e Luna charge, the amount inflated by 20% was actually posted on my CC statement as an actual charge, not a pending transaction, for several days after we ate there, and it was adjusted 2 days after I emailed the restaurant.

Actually, I see all my charges come through right after they are posted by the store, restaurant or vendor. 'Tis the beauty of current online banking. In SXM, that does presume I'm in a wi-fi zone. All transactions over a certain value are pushed to my phone the moment they are created.

Me too. Following this episode, I asked my CC company to send me a txt message each time my CC is charged. Now I am notified immediately of any activity on my card as long as it's above $1.

The reason it's done is that the check is given to the customer for the amount of the meal, not including the tip. That's when the authorization is obtained; before the tip is added. Once the check comes back to you, you add the tip, if appropriate, and that's when YOU agree to the amount of the charge (sign the slip). It's possible, although I agree it's unlikely, that the amount of the meal might be within the card limit, but once the tip is added it could exceed the limit. That is why some banks have that policy with restaurants.

That explanation certainly doesn't explain you experience, which I agree is completely wrong.

I have the same service with my credit card, but believe me, the transaction you see is a pending transaction, and not until it's finalized at the bank is the actual amount determined, which usually takes at least a day or two.

Enough already. This one is done.