Dutch government firm on conditions

Daily Herald story Marlin and the SXM government need to agree to their conditions. Period.

This is byond incredible!

How so?

Marlin will not agree to their terms which seem to me to be reasonable so the island will not receive the much needed money to recover.

Due diligence is a must when in the situation now facing SXM.
We have all seen the stories of the construction vultures arriving in numerous locations in the world following disasters. With the resulting millions wasted together with inferior reconstruction.

Agreed. St. Maarten needs to agree to the Dutch conditions. Period.

Thank-you Carol. I was starting to think rhat I had missed something here.

Having learned too many times over too many years how things often seem to happen on Sint Maarten, I don’t blame them for insisting on these things. There has to be some integrity and accountability, both of which have often been missing in the Island government’s dealings. Don’t know how the border thing would work out but for sure, there has to be accountability over that kind of money, and the people who so desperately need it shouldn’t be held hostage in this mess. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

The Prime Minister sucks.

Don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel. LOL

I can't get the article.

The Daily Herald has been having a lot of problems recently. Try back later.

I was able to get the article after a few attempts. Like Carol said the DH servers have been acting up. Having said that I re-read the article and it seems to me, reading in between the lines, that the Dutch government doesn't have much faith in the St. Maarten government to be good stewards of the funding. I can understand their stand because of what I've read of the current PM.

Doesn't matter which recent PM you are talking about, the SXM government in general has not been good stewards of the people's money.

Ha! Everyone knows about those "wrong" pockets!

Hello GeBe!?!

Zackly, hence the preconditions, which IMO are necessary. I believe it is very foolish position for the PM to take when the people of St. Maarten NEED the assistance and rebuilding the economy through reconstructione is the only way to do it. Again, I think that if one has nothing to hide then one would embrace an oversight committee to be a system of checks and balances. As for the border situation, I can only imagine that it wouldn't really be to hurt the residents and/or tourists but rather to make sure that those coming in to help the rebuilding are there legally. Unfortunately there are some that will dwell upon those in need with criminal actions. Definitely think the SXM gov't is hiding something. As the old saying goes, "He doth protest too much."

Well said , thanks.

I completely agree. We were talking about this last night. There is no reason not to have oversight. You are the ones asking for something (money) so you should be willing to do WHATEVER the person giving wants. Why can't it be transparent and have an integrity committee? That means you are hiding something.
Let the Sunshine In.

So I wonder - if the people who need this relief want it to come in WITH conditions, is there anyway for them to force Marlin's hands? It's unbelievable that at a time like this, he's playing politics with relief funds. ALL relief funds come with strings and conditions.

He holds an elected office, so there's bound to be a way for the political process to run its course. How long can he continue to hold his ground in the face of his constituents, who are desperate for the aid? Who knows? Probably not very long would be my guess.

I am not at all surprised that he is making a lot of noise about this. As I mentioned, there is a democratic system of some sort, and the insistence on an "Accountability Commission" constitutes a vote of no confidence in him by the Netherlands. They are saying in a very direct way that they do not trust him to do what he has been elected to do. If he is as pure as the driven snow, this is patronizing and offensive. And if he isn't, he will lose the ability to deal the money out to his friends. For him, it's bad either way.

But the money talks, so there's no question how this ends. Just when.

Sint Maarteners need to organize and show up at Administration building and get TDH, everyone involved. Not the status quo. Enough already. This is what I told a friend to do when she got a $1000 usd Gebe bill for August and Sept. With no power or water since Sept 5th.
Wish I was down there organizing!

The offer was only until Oct. 31st-haven’t heard of any extensions.

Theo says to give the Dutch what they demand. Daily Herald story

Theo smart. Can't squeeze something that is dry. He's been around a long time now!
Grandpa would be proud! LOL

According to a post on FB the government has now turned down the conditions set so no money from Holland will be coming. I just can’t believe this.

An OFFICIAL government post on Facebook?

http://www.sintmaartengov.org/PressRelea...-Servants-.aspx

Sorry, which means what? Sounds like they are still negotiating?

It means Marlin is saying NO to the Dutch and he seems to believe that the Dutch have to give in to him. His offer to "negotiate" is simply a politician trying to sound at least marginally competent. The fact that Rutte has indefinitely postponed his visit to SXM suggests to me that the Dutch are going to let Marlin at least delay if not kill an aid package getting done. I hope Marlin is prepared for a serious riot if he actually angers the Dutch enough to stop the aid from happening.

It sure looked official but now I can’t find it so maybe not-hope not.

OK. Riot is correct. God help Sint Maarten.

This is not "negotiating". He is sitting at a table by himself. This is called "posturing". The Netherlands holds all of the cards, every single one. Again, the PM can express real or feigned outrage, but at the end of the day, he will do what the Netherlands requires, or there will be no money.

Autonomy and independence are two way streets. Without getting too political, a number of the affected islands have the same issue, including Anguilla. You want to be "independent"? No problem. That means you are on your own, with aid a purely private matter. If I exercise no control over you, then I owe you nothing.

Correct on all counts.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Most of the St. Maarten politicians are in it only for themselves. Not all of them, but for sure most of them. It is about time for their constituents to demand they do what they were elected to do--and that is take care of St. Maarten residents. I can't for the life of me imagine why the same bunch of thieves who have lied to them in the past over and over keep being elected.

But Theo is already riling up the people now.
Marlin needs to get over himself.

Not that anything will change in Marlin's position, but there is supposed to be a meeting of Parliament at 4 PM today to discuss this matter.

I will not pretend to be at all familiar with the form of government in Sint Maarten. That said, if there is a Parliament, and if he is a Prime Minister, it sure sounds like some form of Parliamentary government. If that is the case, the Parliament usually has the power to remove a Prime Minister by a vote of "no confidence". Does anyone here know if that is actually the case?

Yes - a basic parliamentary system.

On a vote of no confidence the Prime Minister "shall resign."

Or, if you could put together enough votes - probably require a supermajority - the Prime Minister probably could be dismissed.

I suppose it possible that this is a big enough deal that Marlin's government could fall - I will believe it when I see it.

Doesn't the government there fall fairly frequently? I seem to recall reading about that on multiple occasions.

For those interested, the parliament meeting is supposed to be carried live on www.pearlfmradio.sx and www.sxmparliament.org There is some kind of a session going on now, but the session about the Dutch aid is supposed to be 4 PM today.

And yes, the SXM government has fallen many times, but I would doubt it in this situation.

If thumbing your nose at the only conceivable source of significant funding desperately needed to restore the island (half) to any semblance of normality won't cause the government to fall, what would? Particularly if it happens often, over other (less important) stuff.

It is one thing for one person to ignore the plight of the citizens. For him to remain in office will require a majority of the members of Parliament to do so. Could become a very different dynamic.

Sounds like Congress. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Has there been any news from the 4:00 meeting?

It was stopped with walk outs .

Sorry, what does that mean?

Are you saying the SXM government officials walked out?! OMG! Is it time to recall them all?

The only way the Government can fall is if the partners in Government quit.

Who are the partners? Is it a coalition?

The coalition partners have to quit.

Lesley--again, what did your statement about people walking out, what does that mean??

Are they all behind Marlin, and they think they should not agree to the Integrity Chamber?

Or can they get rid of him?

I'm so confused.

Do you suppose Marlin and his followers have a back up plan ? Or r they willing to crash ?

Carol,I didn't follow the details simply because they are playing games, which we all hate period.

Both Theodore Heyliger, leader of United Peoples party, and Sarah Wescot-Williams, leader of Democratic Party, both support accepting the conditions set forth by the Netherlands. Not sure about the others.

Daily Herald story Looks like Parliament is fiddling while Rome burns..

Yes and you are correct on this , hence the reason not to literally follow their details. Me ,Wife , Daughter and Son have our work to do and handle. We never voted for the current PM but the tough part is that if he survives it will be for four more years in power . Really hope that this does not happen.

Must be something they are drinking . This group of elected officials can’t even organize a meeting !

You are assuming that they WANT to hold a meeting. They have been doing this stuff for years. Someone doesn't show up so they don't have a quorum, so they can have an excuse not to do anything. As I said, 'fiddling while Rome burns'..

“They” could mean “One” wanted to hold a meeting . Where we live that is normal but as we all know , Sxm operates beyond the norm.

For well over thirty years I’ve been trying to understand how the government operates here, and why the people keep electing the same ilk of officials election after election. To this day I still don’t get it.

But I do get ‘the people’ are currently getting screwed. They need help and they need it now and the government seems to be going out of its way to see that help doesn’t come.

What a shame the higher powers in control of the purse strings should ask for transparency and accountability with regard to the millions of Euros involved here, (she says with tongue firmly planted in cheek!) .........

God help the people of SXM. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

Those elected officals must live on a private island somewhere .

I am confused with all these political posts here. I thought politics was not tolerated on the forum.In the past, posts have been shut down because of this, but somehow SXM politics seems to be different.

Yes, SXM politics are different.

Sarah says enough is enough. Daily Herald story

My Wife just showed me the video and now I'm feeling much better. Please look at how the MPS are nervous and shaking. Harsh reality has finally kicked in.

It’s high time.

Being uneducated on St. Maarten/St. Martin's governmental structure (even though having been there 6 times) this is actually interesting. Could someone explain who all these names, groups, etc. are?

I dont know sxm government structure at all. But I did here Marlin speak manyntimes on the radio after the storm. Seems very bright. It cant be easy governing any Caribbean island. Look at PR if you dont like GEBE.

As for the oversight, there has to be some, the question is how much.

I do know many countries of the world get handcuffed when the IMF comes in to “help” with loans and all during financial crises.

That may not apply here as might just be aid coming that does not require strings or repayment and dutch just want to make sure not squandered orr corrupted, how will the dutch hand out the cash? Is it aid or a loan? Who decides amounts?

Anyway, like i said, dont understand govt structure or what the dutch are giving and demanding exactly.

New Dutch official still wants to help SXM and work it out. Daily Herald story Come on eggheads, get this done, for the good of the people!!

Marlin is playing a very dangerous poker game and the odds are not good .

The Islands Govt. corruption has been well documented...... they don't sign the deal as is......no $$$$. Where is the SXM $$$ for the rebuild???

Does anyone know what Marlin's problem is with the Integrity Chamber and/or the better border control?

My understanding is that he feels it is a violation of SXM's independent status as a country. .....meanwhile, there will be no country left, as a result of his hubris..

this government is very corrupt... Many residents are aware of this. Marlin has taken money from investers, and put it in his pocket...this is what I have been told. Why this continues??? Not sure... It kind of reminds me of Puerto rico, they want to be independent, but want the U.S. to pour money in... Hope this does not offend anyone, but this is a reality... Your either independent or not... St.M. with this government can not survive... Marlin should give up all the money he received from Chinese investers to rebuild the Island My opinion, and that of many that live on Island

Strong statements and a common thread on this site . Where is the money trail ?

Lots of allegations. Where is the documented proof?

Interesting facts and probable motivation for the Dutch Govt. insistence to rules regarding the bailout $$$$

From Wikipedia:

"Debt

On November 2, 2006, the Dutch government set aside 65 million guilders (NAF) to pay off St. Maarten's debts. The Dutch portion of the island became a country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 2010. While this was beneficial in some ways, the decision has shifted more responsibilities over to the island and with those, more debt.[5] Since St. Maarten became an autonomous country in 2010, it has never had a balanced budget and it has accumulated a debt of 200 million guilders (NAF) according to a statement by the Minister of Finance in December 2015.[20][21]"

This is a country of less than 40,000 citizens........do the math folks. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

Doing the math- updated with new starting numbers
200,000,000 NAF divided by 40,000 people = 5000 NAF per person.
5000 NAF per person equals about $2850 USD.

In the US our national debt is about $60,000 per person.
That equals about $106,0000 in NAF.

If the SXM debt was at the same rate as here in the US per person then they would be at $4,240,000,000 NAF or about $2,400,000,000 USD.

Spin this what ever way you want and have a great morning. Feel free to correct any math errors, still early here on the West Coast.
Cheers,
Todd

There was no intent to make a comparison between a country of 250+ million people.....1/2 of which pay no taxes, and are taken care of cradle to grave by the government and a COUNTRYwith a population (~40K) that would be representative in size of a small U.S CITY. That comparison would be foolish.
A couple a hundred Million $$$$ are generated yearly as a direct result of tourism taxes alone, T/S.....airport, cruise ships. They obviously don't spend diddly on infrastructure,military or entitlements......so tell us where the money goes????

Take a look at the roads!!!Nothing ever done to repair. Very dangerous . we have been going to sxm for many years, and have heard that anyone that want to start a business on Island, just has to shell our money to government officials. This is going on for years... Hand over the cash and things get done. Proof???? Everyone that lives on Island knows how crooked this government is... They put cash in there pocket, and the Island gets nothing done... marlin is a crooked . Period...

Sometimes you do not need documented proof. Do you really think government can not hide things????? This is an Island, who has the power to get real proof... The proof is in the aligations from many people over the years... Ask the residents what they think!!! Not ttol people..

Everyone except the Dutch Side government "gets" it.

I just did the math and added a comparison for reference, I could have used Canada or France which is about half of what the US is but easier to relate to where most of us live. I think Netherlands per person debt is about $38k in USD but a bit more difficult to be sure of. Not political, not saying anything is right, just did math as requested with the info given with a slightly researched reference point.
Cheers,
T

Sounds like a typical west coast train of thought! Nice comeback SXMBND, very true!

Todd,
I, for one, appreciate your math. Thanks.

Me too. Facts can be your friend, if you let them.

"Sometimes you do not need documented proof....The proof is in the aligations..."

Ummm, no.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

Looks like Sarah and Theo have pulled Chanel Brownbill away from USP/NA. So, DP, UPP, and Brownbill are 8 MPS - which is a majority of 15 MPS total. If Brownbill can withstand pressure and hold his ground, looks like Sarah may be PM again and aid with conditions will happen. No idea how fast they can get Marlin out and new government in place - if in fact they have at least the 8 MPs. Dutch certainly have no reason to do anything other than wait for new government and agreement to conditions.

I saw that in the DH today about Brownbill. Doing what needs to be done, hopefully.

I was so hoping that this would happen-lets keep our fingers crossed.

We were waiting for this to happen. Honesty has to now prevail how the funds will be spent.

I'm real confused. Marlin apparently agreed to the conditions on Monday

He tried a "late change " after he learnt about what was going to happen to him.

OK

Typical politician. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/hammer.gif" alt="" />