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Airport project is delayed

Posted By: tpcook

Airport project is delayed - 06/16/2016 12:49 PM

looks like the airport project is delayed. Sounds like there is no money in the bank. Maybe reality is winning the day. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/16/2016 03:14 PM

Not sure it is delayed "indefinitely" but they are definitely getting cold feet.

There was a discussuion on a BVI Facebook page Monday that may have had an effect. It was widely participated in and the vast majority was opposed to the extension. I was suprised to see some post questioning the project from people who had previously been in favor.

BTW, the greenhouses are back in the news with a proposal for $1.5 mill to replace the covers and equip a couple of them. However, the royalty situation with IBT is still not resolved.
Posted By: salica

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/16/2016 04:05 PM

No surprises there then.
Posted By: NCSailor

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 12:06 AM

I thought the Chinese were underwriting the airport in return for a nuclear sub base to be named later?
Posted By: tpcook

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 12:08 PM

re:
The Greenhouses.
So they now need to replace the covers yet the greenhouses have not grown 1 tomato. 1.5 million buys a lot of tomatoes.
This is another BAD idea. Wait till the first hurricane comes and destroys the greenhouses. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" />

How can a project be undertaken where you don't own the technology? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: GeorgeC1

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 02:25 PM

So with the airport on hold we can expect the government to jump into the ferry situation with both feet and fix it!
G
Posted By: Orange_Burst

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 02:36 PM

Quote
GeorgeC1 said:
So with the airport on hold we can expect the government to jump into the ferry situation with both feet and fix it!
G


<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Carol_Hill

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 03:18 PM

No, it's <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Rofl.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 03:29 PM

Quote
GeorgeC1 said:
So with the airport on hold we can expect the government to jump into the ferry situation with both feet and fix it!
G


Highly unlikely. The leadership of the British Virgin Islands do not want the visitors to the BVI to ride the cross border ferries.
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 04:04 PM

And why not considering the ferries bring more than 70% of the over night visitors and even when AE was flying they were bringing more than half? Even if by some miricle some airline decides to make 2 flights a day into Beef Island the ferries will still carry more than half.

The BVI IS getting a reputation for being hard to get to but it is not because of limited air access. It is because of a crappy ferry service.

The reason the ferry service cannot be fixed is because the government is affraid to go against the 3 or 4 families that own the ferry companies who carry on petty competitions to the detriment of the visitors and who have milked them of cash to the detriment of the whole country.
Posted By: GeorgeC1

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 06:55 PM

Glen nailed it!
G
Posted By: Will_L

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 06:57 PM

Good point Glenn, though arrived quite well via the Bomba charger Wed. A little (comparitivly) investment in the ferry service would make a huge difference.

A dependablele catamaran ferry every hour and a half from 1PM til 7pm leaving STT with 8 am and 10 am morning service.. Along with daily service at 5pm to VG, would solve many problems causing people to complain.

Honestly since the ATRs left and FF flights to EIS or VG were unavailable or required spending +\- 450 for the SJU/VG leg, going through STT from the Midwest we arrive on VG earlier than when we had to make connections in Chicago or Miami and the SJU ..was often the late North Sound Ferry..so the day of travel was 2-3 hrs longer than currently taking ferry from STT.

Subsidizing schedule when a certain minimum of passengers was not met to be sure Ferries ran on time And vessels were up to date would make the journey dependable and quite accommodating to most vacationers.
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 07:39 PM

The frustrating thing is that almost unique to ferry systems in the world the STT/Tortola route can make an exceptionally good profit without any subsidies. It has an almost captive market, a break even load factor of about 40% and a only 75 days in the year where the passenger load drops below 50%, revenue of $1.65 per passenger mile and close to $1.20 per seat mile. These are numbers that airline executive could only immagine in their wildest dreams.
Posted By: LianeLeTendre

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 08:14 PM

Quote
GeorgeC1 said:
Glen nailed it!
G


He sure did. We should all get together, form an investment company and then approach one of the local companies with a business plan that will put them head and shoulders above the rest.
Posted By: Guineaman

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 08:47 PM

Quote
tpcook said:
looks like the airport project is delayed. Sounds like there is no money in the bank. Maybe reality is winning the day. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />


But it looks like they're building something serious for cyberspace.

Caribbean Journal
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 09:25 PM

I was told once that the only way to get in the ferry business in the BVI is to marry into it. wink

You can't do it with just one company. The other two would risk bankruptcy to try to kill it they way they did when Bobby Hodge started. The only way I can see it happening would be for someone with deep pockets to present the three companies with a deal they can't refuse. A 10 year lease to own deal on 6 new 95 passenger fast cats on the condition that they form a co-op with a centralized booking office so that passengers would always be placed on the next boat going. A common ticketing office at each termial would save money and could anticipate when demand required bringing on an extra boat. If managed correctly no passenger would have more than a hour wait.

The companies would rotate runs through the day and receive a base for each run plus a per passenger overide at the end of each month that would be penalized for failing to make a run. That way there would be no motive for canceling a run due to lack of demand or jockying around to get the choice time slot.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/17/2016 09:26 PM

Quote
Guineaman said:
Quote
tpcook said:
looks like the airport project is delayed. Sounds like there is no money in the bank. Maybe reality is winning the day. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />


But it looks like they're building something serious for cyberspace.

Caribbean Journal


Maybe too little, too late, in the wrong direction? This is one of the key priorities that came out of the McKinney study and others. The musts are regular jet services to the US and best in class internet and telecommunications. To attract and keep "discerting visitors" they must be able to easily get in and out without hassle and be able to access networks just as they can at home or at the office>

"First and foremost, the jurisdiction should prioritise building an environment that offers convenient air and sea transportation and seamless telecommunications. The Terrence B. Lettsome airport upgrade, and better use of shuttle connections to the Cyril E. King International Airport in nearby St. Thomas, should continue to be fast-tracked."

ST. Thomas and STT refused to go along with the shuttle from STT.

Like the tomatoes, I have not idea where this local content value ever comes from.
Posted By: HillsideView

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 12:12 PM

"If managed correctly". Mission Impossible.
Posted By: tpcook

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 12:49 PM

RE:
Ferry service at 5 PM to VG. This is a realty as you know and Speedy does a great job with his ferry service to STT and also service to/from Roadtown and also to/from Beef Island.
Ferries are clean, run ontime and comfortable. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />

Roadtown Fast Ferry does a good job with the ferry that comes down from Ma each year. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />
If only the BVI government would help and improve on what is working, there would be a decent ferry service.
Posted By: TomSW

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 01:41 PM

The BVI Government help? Get the government out of there if you want real progress.
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 02:54 PM

Actually, Government intervention in the form enforcing service level requirements through its power of granting and regulating public franchises is key. Currently the worst possible combination of government cronyism and abandonment of its regulatory responsibility exists.

That is true on both ends of the route. While the STT taxi associations are an obsticle to a unified service from the airport to Tortola, the real problem is the close relationship between one of the ferry companies and the USVI Ports Authority. As far as the taxi objection is concerned, the current franchises expire in January 2018 and the ST. Thomas Dept of Tourism, the Hotel Association and the Chamber of Commerce are lined up to weaken the exclusivity even more than they managed in 2012. In 2012 the taxis at STT were required to dedicate several lanes exclusively to individual resorts. Hopefully the same will be required for the ferry terminal in future regulations. Also, with a reliable ferry and central ticketing the rate of advanced reservation will increase allowing the ferry system to provide limosine service to and from the airport.

The real problem is landing rights at Blyden terminal and Smiths and Native Son both have a lot of influence with the USVI Ports Authority. Unless they are brought into a cooperative arangement any improvement in the ferry service will be impossible.
Posted By: RatmansWife

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 03:04 PM

Re: the airport. When you're broke, you're broke. And it sounds like they be really broke. Margaritaville is halted, too.

http://www.bviplatinum.com/news.php?articleId=1466128390
Posted By: casailor53

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 04:00 PM

Quote
HillsideView said:
"If managed correctly". Mission Impossible.

I was going to say the same. Management in the BVI by BVIslanders is non-existant.
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 04:24 PM

That would be one of the advantages of a lease to own deal. The outside financial backer would have to have a large say in the management. Unfortunately that is the major drawback to my proposal. The recent IBAHNHAR reaction to RTW/Riteway selling to CostULess is an indication that the islands will forever be trapped in their own greed and short sightedness.
Posted By: bonefish

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 05:48 PM

Was the American Eagle operation out of the San Juan hub to multiple destinations in the Caribbean unprofitable or was it a casualty of the AA bankruptcy?

We have not been back the Tortola since the ATR's stopped operating.

Seven flights a day to EIS from San Juan was lovely and beat the hell out of the STT, Shared Taxi, Unreliable Ferry, Taxi to charter base scenario. And I like others here don't see this improving any time soon.

Improved air service would bring us back. Am I the only one that feels this way? I mean besides Stormjib.
Posted By: GeorgeC1

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/18/2016 09:16 PM

AMR felt they were being dealt with unfairly by the airport authority in SJU. Low cost airlines were being charged far less then the legacy airlines. They threatened to leave and the airport did not believe it. In the end they pulled 50 ATR's out and dropped 10 mainline flights to SJU. It probably was a good thing overall as it has served as a warning to other airports and even government agencies. Florida as a example recently agreed to phase in equal fuel taxes for all airlines. JetBlue, Spirit and Southwest will have to pay the same higher tax rate as Delta, United and AMR.
G
Posted By: tpcook

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 01:25 AM

Just did a Goggle search for Chinese projects in the Caribbean.
What a mess. Lawsuits on many projects, overruns on projects,Chinese workers having a sideline in Antigua removing all the lobsters, hotels have no lobsters

Bottom line the BVI best make sure about this project.
Design of the project must be set in stone, no changes. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: JD_Midnight

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 02:51 AM

Just curious... Nobody mentions Seaborne. They have multiple flights daily and we have used for several years without any problems. Uses to even have a quite lane for security though now that they are in the main terminal that perk has gone. Certainly not every hour but some selection. Is there a problem with them?
Posted By: Manpot

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 03:39 PM

We don't need the airport extension and, much as I love JB, we don't need another "Margaritaville". I do feel bad for those who have jumped on the pier bandwagon by spending $$$$$$ to open places..think this will be a big white elephant..
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 07:09 PM

"Design of the project must be set in stone, no changes."

That is not the way this project is approach at all. The Airport will be a "design build". The plan is for a single contract with the project owner to provide their own design and construction services. One entity, one contract, one unified flow of work from initial concept through completion. The costs to fully engineers and design a project like this are enormous. Theoretically the cost would be fixed or not to exceed in the contract. To count on that is always naive. Something will likely be discovered along the way that the people of the BVI will want to pay for rather than suffer the shortfall. Potential issues with the environment come to mind.

You can look up the benefits of "design build" and why many use that approach today.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 07:26 PM

Quote
JD_Midnight said:
Just curious... Nobody mentions Seaborne. They have multiple flights daily and we have used for several years without any problems. Uses to even have a quite lane for security though now that they are in the main terminal that perk has gone. Certainly not every hour but some selection. Is there a problem with them?


Seaborne may be a great match for many. But, the new table stakes for 21st Century holiday travel is direct jet service from the US mainland. Aruba, Barbados, Cayman Islands, Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Jamaica, St. Kitts, St. Lucia and St. Martin plus Antigua, Bermuda, St. Vincent have all reads the reports and are making the investments to improve direct jet service from Canada and the US Mainland. The BVI will to it is just a matter of where, how, and when. Each month of delay only serves to increase the cost and disruption when the time comes. If and when the five jetports in Cuba open to US tourist the entire industry will change. There will be some domino effect there. The same could be true if Puerto Rico decides to be their future on visitor dollars.... There is already some massive very high end hotel investment in play there. The same with marina services.
Posted By: JD_Midnight

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 07:50 PM

Thanks. The reason I come to BVI is the sailing... If not would go to,one of the destinations mentioned. Puerto Rico is great. Those are all bigger places with much more options and population base. Can t imagine bvi ever attracting large plane loads of folks... And if it did Imfor,one would find somewhere else.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 09:13 PM

Quote
JD_Midnight said:
Thanks. The reason I come to BVI is the sailing... If not would go to,one of the destinations mentioned. Puerto Rico is great. Those are all bigger places with much more options and population base. Can t imagine bvi ever attracting large plane loads of folks... And if it did Imfor,one would find somewhere else.


I have never heard anyone talking about planes larger than the +/-200 passenger 737-800. The strategic plan is to hold on to the visitors who come today along with a transitioning to a more "discerning" visitor spending more per day. The plan has never been to dramatically grow the number of visitors. There is hope for a longer peak season(10 months) with more repeat visitors using the jet services for more frequent trips. Done well the BVI will be less crowded with greater revenues. That is only possible with direct consistent access from the US.
Posted By: Quilombo

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 11:15 PM

I watch, but never contribute. My bad. There is a four letter word that seems never to be mentioned. "Cuba". The entire Caribbean will change when Cuba opens up. The BVI will not be able to retain it's prosperity. I am one who felt the venality of the BVI justice system in 2000. It is no different than Massachusetts or other corrupt state in the USA, but on a smaller scale. The BVI is a paradise that is totally misgoverned and at the mercy of a few powerful families. Sorry to have to say this, but I believe it to be true. Cuba will make this argument unnecessary.
Posted By: maytrix

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/28/2016 11:44 PM

Quote
JD_Midnight said:
Just curious... Nobody mentions Seaborne. They have multiple flights daily and we have used for several years without any problems. Uses to even have a quite lane for security though now that they are in the main terminal that perk has gone. Certainly not every hour but some selection. Is there a problem with them?


We do the same with Cape Air. And frankly, the smaller planes allow for more frequent flights giving more options for timing. Larger planes would mean fewer flights and fewer options. And I don't think it woudl reduce the cost either.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/29/2016 03:27 PM

Quote
maytrix said:
Quote
JD_Midnight said:
Just curious... Nobody mentions Seaborne. They have multiple flights daily and we have used for several years without any problems. Uses to even have a quite lane for security though now that they are in the main terminal that perk has gone. Certainly not every hour but some selection. Is there a problem with them?


We do the same with Cape Air. And frankly, the smaller planes allow for more frequent flights giving more options for timing. Larger planes would mean fewer flights and fewer options. And I don't think it woudl reduce the cost either.


None of this was ever about reducing costs or prices. The plans are all about increasing convenience and reducing hassles for the travelers who are less price sensitive. Mexico, DR, Cuba will win the battles for the lower cost travelers. The BVI has no hope of ever competing in that league.

All that said when it comes to air travel do not discount the cost each time a plane must go up and go down. Those costs come from airport charges, air frame cost with each cycle, engine costs, enormous fuel burn along with all the labor and time loss. Every airline must get to +/-10 cents a passenger mile to survive. No airline can do that with short hop flights anymore. So in theory the efficient market will end up costing less to fly direct. Whether those savings are passed onto the customer is a product management decision. Figure out how much you are paying per mile for those Seaborne seats and services. Airport fees, fuel to go up, and labor going slow all add up to a money loser for the operator. So AA punted along with all the other majors who offered short haul services. Labor costs are drowning those still trying to hang on.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/29/2016 03:44 PM

Regional short haul flight segments are expensive and the airlines are running from them. This will only get worse not better.

Here is some airline 101 from AA latest disclosure:

"First quarter mainline cost per available seat mile (CASM) was 11.58 cents, down 9.5 percent on a 3.1 percent increase in mainline ASMs versus the first quarter 2015. Excluding special items and fuel, mainline CASM was 9.62 cents, up 1.4 percent compared to the first quarter 2015. Regional CASM excluding net special items and fuel was 16.11 cents, down 2.2 percent on an 8.1 percent increase in regional ASMs versus the first quarter 2015."
Posted By: maytrix

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/29/2016 07:32 PM

Some airlines may run form the regional segments, while others (see Cape Air) base their whole business on them.

It seems based on your arguments that the wealthy who are too important to risk their lives on small places are really the only ones that need direct service. Anyone else who has the money can simply fly to San Juan and pay the price for the regional flight. Or fly to St. Thomas and pay the price for a water taxi.

Because if direct flights would only come from Miami or places near there, its still two legs for most. So maybe I'm just a fool, but I don't see how that benefits most people.

Seems to me to charter boat business does well in the seasons it should do well. How do the hotels do? How many more people can they take? What aren't the coming today? Have these questions really been asked?

I think the answer is simple - many people are simply unaware of the BVI. I knew about St. Thomas - honeymooned there. Didn't know a thing about the BVI at that time. It wasn't until 8-9 years later that we went to St. John with friends that we found out more about the BVI.

Maybe if the BVI spent a portion of the airport money on advertising, they'd attract more people. Or as has been mentioned plenty, on a better ferry service. St John seems to do well with Ferry service only..
Posted By: GeorgeC1

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/29/2016 07:49 PM

In the end it's all a moot point. There is simply no suitable place for a reasonable airport in the BVI except Anegada. I am sure Storm Jibs comments have validity however the shoe simply will not fit.
G
Posted By: Will_L

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/29/2016 07:50 PM

Storm Jib..this is a conversation much like ground hog day. Everyplace you mention having direct service ...has competitive air service by multiple airlines. That is because they can be competitive and fill planes to that destination that is popular with a large segment traveling.

You know that no major airline has said they will fly this route to the BVI correct? You know there is no evidence that a very expensive flight to the BVI will cause the very wealthy to fly coach to the BVI do you not?
Perhaps the most wealthy per capita destination in the Caribbean is St Bart's. Would you list the carriers providing direct flights to St Bart's from the mainland?

Because you believe something will happen it does not mean it will. the last time you claimed it was accountants and Little Dix executives who needed this service. they wouldn't together pay for one flight in 5 years most likely.... the Rosewood executives are not flying daily to their various properties and when the big boss goes, he is going to be flying in a private aircraft. telecommuting has arrived!!

Anyway..glad it looks like wiser heads prevailed and project is shut down for the foreseeable future. Think it was a disaster in the making.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 01:08 AM

Quote
Will_L said:
Storm Jib..this is a conversation much like ground hog day. Everyplace you mention having direct service ...has competitive air service by multiple airlines. That is because they can be competitive and fill planes to that destination that is popular with a large segment traveling.

You know that no major airline has said they will fly this route to the BVI correct? You know there is no evidence that a very expensive flight to the BVI will cause the very wealthy to fly coach to the BVI do you not?
Perhaps the most wealthy per capita destination in the Caribbean is St Bart's. Would you list the carriers providing direct flights to St Bart's from the mainland?

Because you believe something will happen it does not mean it will. the last time you claimed it was accountants and Little Dix executives who needed this service. they wouldn't together pay for one flight in 5 years most likely.... the Rosewood executives are not flying daily to their various properties and when the big boss goes, he is going to be flying in a private aircraft. telecommuting has arrived!!

Anyway..glad it looks like wiser heads prevailed and project is shut down for the foreseeable future. Think it was a disaster in the making.


For the record it is not and never was the senior executives of the legal entities operating the properties. Today the properties of all types have very large values and even larger $$,$$$,$$$ needs for the next renovation to stay competitive.. The growing business travel requirement is for third party lawyers and financial auditors that the regulatory require to finance anything meaningful these days. Struggling MarineMax alone has numerous regulatory requirements along with highly covenanted debt that swings between $200M and $400. Simply put in this century you need direct jet service if you want reasonable finance to grow, improve, or sell your property. We no longer build our dream small inn with coral we find near the beach. Direct jet service must be found to service the private banking business, the mortgages and finance with regulatory covenants that go with that for the more expensive vacation properties, and the 21st century "discerning" visitor the BVI leadership is counting on to sustain the Islands for the coming decades.
Posted By: NCSailor

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:11 AM

Quote
StormJib said:
Quote
Will_L said:
Storm Jib..this is a conversation much like ground hog day. Everyplace you mention having direct service ...has competitive air service by multiple airlines. That is because they can be competitive and fill planes to that destination that is popular with a large segment traveling.

You know that no major airline has said they will fly this route to the BVI correct? You know there is no evidence that a very expensive flight to the BVI will cause the very wealthy to fly coach to the BVI do you not?
Perhaps the most wealthy per capita destination in the Caribbean is St Bart's. Would you list the carriers providing direct flights to St Bart's from the mainland?


For the record it is not and never was the senior executives of the legal entities operating the properties. Today the properties of all types have very large values and even larger $$,$$$,$$$ needs for the next renovation to stay competitive.. The growing business travel requirement is for third party lawyers and financial auditors that the regulatory require to finance anything meaningful these days. Struggling MarineMax alone has numerous regulatory requirements along with highly covenanted debt that swings between $200M and $400. Simply put in this century you need direct jet service if you want reasonable finance to grow, improve, or sell your property. We no longer build our dream small inn with coral we find near the beach. Direct jet service must be found to service the private banking business, the mortgages and finance with regulatory covenants that go with that for the more expensive vacation properties, and the 21st century "discerning" visitor the BVI leadership is counting on to sustain the Islands for the coming decades.


Like a broken record playing the same song over and over...
Posted By: maytrix

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:29 AM

I think the issue with StormJib's vision on what is needed is that it's focusing on what a small group needs. And I'm still not sure why a financial auditor can't either fly into St Thomas or San Juan and then either take a ferry or commuter flight or even a private jet if needed. If money isn't the issue, there are plenty of other good ways to get there.

What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:54 AM

Quote
maytrix said:
I think the issue with StormJib's vision on what is needed is that it's focusing on what a small group needs. And I'm still not sure why a financial auditor can't either fly into St Thomas or San Juan and then either take a ferry or commuter flight or even a private jet if needed. If money isn't the issue, there are plenty of other good ways to get there.

What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels.


Data Set #1

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/file...e_2010-2015.pdf

Data Set #2

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/files/overnight_visitors_by_accommodation_2010-2014.pdf

Data Set #3 for Lagniappe

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/files/estimated_visitor_expenditure_2010-2015.pdf
Posted By: GlennA

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 03:15 AM

Looks like he is attempting to win by drowning us in unrelated data. Nothing in those tables contridicts the fact that hotel executives, auditors and financial wizards are only a miniscule fraction of the arrivals.
Posted By: HillsideView

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 12:39 PM

Baffle 'em with BS. His specialty.
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 12:50 PM

Quote
GlennA said:
Looks like he is attempting to win by drowning us in unrelated data. Nothing in those tables contridicts the fact that hotel executives, auditors and financial wizards are only a miniscule fraction of the arrivals.


I guess you missed the question asked?

"What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels."

I am not sure how you would measure nor have I ever read a "boat occupancy study". With those three BVI data points you can make your own determinations on the value of the boat versus the land overnight visitors.

What many seem to be missing is no airport makes money or a profit on flights. Airports are just one of the required bits of infrastructure every 21st Century market must have. The BVI is no different. Just like roads, airports are expensive you simply cannot prosper without them. If you want the villas, inns, hotels, and future boat operations to do well. You will need a path to jet service from the primary market the US East Coast.
Posted By: NCSailor

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 12:59 PM

Quote
StormJib said:
Quote
GlennA said:
Looks like he is attempting to win by drowning us in unrelated data. Nothing in those tables contridicts the fact that hotel executives, auditors and financial wizards are only a miniscule fraction of the arrivals.


I guess you missed the question asked?

"What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels."

I am not sure how you would measure nor have I ever read a "boat occupancy study". With those three BVI data points you can make your own determinations on the value of the boat versus the land overnight visitors.

What many seem to be missing is no airport makes money or a profit on flights. Airports are just one of the required bits of infrastructure every 21st Century market must have. The BVI is no different. Just like roads, airports are expensive you simply cannot prosper without them. If you want the villas, inns, hotels, and future boat operations to do well. You will need a path to jet service from the primary market the US East Coast.


Well, Ron it just ain't gonna happen so get used to it. Embrace the ferry.
Posted By: LianeLeTendre

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 01:01 PM

I can't believe I am jumping back into this again ... but ...

I'd like to meet the "discerning" visitor who has no problem with constant power outages, frequent and severe water shortages, torn up, pot-holed, badly engineered and mostly unlit roads with few road signs, questionable food establishments (certainly not all but a large majority), over flowing dumpsters all over the place, trash strewn everywhere, and sub-par (disinterested) service at many establishments, shops and indeed in government.

Don't you think it is putting the cart before the horse to build an airport runway that can accommodate Boeing 737-800's and airbus A320's when the above will take a minimum of 20 years to sort out, if they start today ... and don't stop for anything. Let's be realistic here.

Our visitor market is people who really don't mind all those things as well as upwardly mobile and well-to-do sailors who don't have to deal with much of it for any length of time while aboard their yacht.

The Boeing 737-800 carries 154 passengers with three classes of seating. Only 16 are first class, 48 are "economy plus" and 90 are economy.

The A-320 seats 150 passengers or up to 189 in a high-density configuration. There are 10 first class seats in one configuration of the airbus A-320 and 16 in the other.

So exactly how many "discerning" visitors will be coming here on these flights, assuming there would be one flight maybe every other day of either type ... and how often? That is a [color:"red"]huge[/color] assumption by the way, since there is no deal with any airline at this point.

I have close friends who own a couple of apartments on the privately owned cruise ship called "The World". They come here (on The World) about once a year ... and I usually have to go to Jost Van Dyke to see them. The also have a home in Bermuda, a home in London and a cottage in Northern Ontario.

They wouldn't dream of coming here for a vacation. In fact, when the World was in Road Town several years ago, I had to beg them to come to my place. He stayed on the ship while she came with me. He wasn't even interested in getting off the darned boat! I had to go to the ship for lunch, even though I had made plans to make lunch at my place for them.

My own family considers it a chore to come here to visit because the BVI just isn't up to their standards. They were horrified by the smell of the Sargassum the last time they were here and couldn't believe it was just left sitting along the shoreline to rot. There is still no plan to deal with the sargassum.

My niece was walking with her 3 year old along the road on Frenchman's Cay coming back from having coffee at Omar's and some guy was peeing on a tree at the side of the road and didn't even bother to try to hide. She was totally disgusted. Where she comes from, people are arrested for indecent exposure for doing things like that. Here it is an every day occurrence.

A couple of months ago, they sent me a ticket to Toronto so I can go visit them and we will all go up to our mutual friend's cottage on Bone Island in Georgian Bay ... the one's who own the apartments on the World. It was their subtle way of telling me they won't be coming down next year.

So if the intent is to attract the "discerning" visitors (in any substantive way), I can tell you quite honestly that the BVI has a very long way to go before that dream becomes a reality.

Oh and by the way, my family didn't mind the flights from Toronto to St. Maarten and St. Maarten to Tortola. They much prefer St. Maarten and stayed there for 5 days after they visited me. They are always trying to talk me into going to St. Maarten for a vacation with them. For me, getting out of the Caribbean is a vacation!

I agree with Will's Ground Hog Day analogy. Sometimes we repeat ourselves (over and over again) because we feel our need to be heard has not been satisfied. I feel my need to be heard has been met and have nothing further to add to the conversation ... unless of course the conversation takes an incredibly interesting turn. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Carol_Hill

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 01:27 PM

Hey Liane--you really should try St Maarten/St. Martin sometime. You might like it!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: LianeLeTendre

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 01:41 PM

Hi Carol,

I have ... twice and I did like it, but been there, done that! You have to remember that I have lived in the BVI for a pretty long time. I need to get away from the Caribbean for it to be a real vacation for me.

I honestly can't think of a better place to visit than Northern Ontario. My family had a cottage on an island in Lake Muskoka when I was growing up and I just love the place. I love the Caribbean and the BVI too ... but the need to get away is strong when rock fever sets in. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Joy.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 01:46 PM

"I'd like to meet the "discerning" visitor who has no problem with constant power outages, frequent and severe water shortages, torn up, pot-holed, badly engineered and mostly unlit roads with few road signs, questionable food establishments (certainly not all but a large majority), over flowing dumpsters all over the place, trash strewn everywhere, and sub-par (disinterested) service at many establishments, shops and indeed in government."

They are out there everyday on their yachts carrying those services with them. They are at Peter Island, Bitter End Yacht Club, they will be back at Little Dix spending more than ever in a couple of years. They will build villas at Nail Bay. And yes some show up on larger ships like The World.

Many get lost looking for simple answer to a complex ever changing market. One part of that market and in many cases the decision maker will want to arrive and depart on a FAA Part 135 private flight. Others in the group travel on different days with the rest of us. Family, friends, guests, and co-workers must be able to get in an out without the taxi, ferry, taxi, STT dance or other hassles the current mess has in place.

To answer your question discerning visitors are all around you each day. The hope is to at least keep the number visiting today and gain more repeat business from the "discerning" group ten months out of the year. I will accept many and maybe most who visit the BVI only set foot on Tortola to get in and out of the BVI Islands. The same is true with St. Thomas. Just mixing the name St. Thomas with any BVI trip damages the BVI brand.

If you read the local press this week the USVI is having their own problems with the St. John ferries.

For the record if I were Czar there would be very nice ferries at no charge taking anyone getting off a plane to suitable docks on each of the area Islands every hour until two hours after the last plane lands for the day. Bag would be checked directly to the boat and ALL C&I would be majestically done on the boat ride. A simple beautiful welcome to the BVI first and last impression.

Does my plan fix the capacity limits that have long been reached at STT? My plan ignores the reality of the tribal politics and jealousy between the two sets of Islands. US educated Pickering and a few others more than get all that. That is why they will keep working until they find a contractor willing to contract to build the airport to FAA specs. Not doing it would be the same as The Moorings going back to the 38 foot monohulls with no AC of the 70's.

With the loss of AA from EIS. Our large and growing family spreads the money around a little more. We do use private charter into EIS. Scrub makes a great base for greeting and dropping off crew. Pre 9/11 we used the fuel dock at Red Hook for that at times. We also make use of the direct flights to St. Lucia and the Mooring Base there. St. Vincent by far has the best sailing but until the airport gets open the hassle of going through Barbados is not fun. Martinique has the best food and provisioning with almost no flights from the US. My daughters have connected through Paris to meet us in Martinique. Fun once; doubt they will do it again. The BVI has the easiest sailing +9 months of the year of any of the charter options. The BVI is losing or surrendering the ease of ingress and egress the iPad generation is going to demand.
Posted By: Manpot

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:01 PM

Wow Liane had no idea I lived in such a third world dump!
Posted By: sleepychef

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:17 PM

Wow I have never read such a closeted view of people who have their heads stuck up their arses as you portray your family and friends to be. This is the BVI and if it must get to their standard before they visit I hope it never does LianeLe Tendre
Posted By: StormJib

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:43 PM

Quote
sleepychef said:
Wow I have never read such a closeted view of people who have their heads stuck up their arses as you portray your family and friends to be. This is the BVI and if it must get to their standard before they visit I hope it never does LianeLe Tendre


That is probably not fair. I have anchored off Little Dix Bay and other shore based offerings for the day or night to join a friend at "their" resort or villa for a meal. We always offer the shore based group the opportunity to go somewhere with us on the boat. Some love the adventure and leap aboard. Others with hectic lives at home just want to relax in their place and routine. Just like the rest of us on our boats. Those ashore or on cruise ships have a schedule, plan, routine, and comfort zone.

My best spur of the moment guest. A single Mom staying on St. Thomas with two young daughters for a week. She met my then 8 year old in the dinghy with one small duffel, one half gallon Jack Daniels, and ten towels she lifted from the hotel maid's cart. She had never been on a boat before. Stayed for three days. We all had a blast.

Go to a Jamaica resort if you wonder too far off the reservation you should expect trouble. The same is true with some beaches in Mexico and the Bahamas.
Posted By: Carol_Hill

Re: Airport project is delayed - 06/30/2016 02:43 PM

Alrighty then. I think this one is done.
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