Tipping - Dutch Side

We went a restaurant tonight that charged a 15% service charge. On the bill, there was an additional recommended 15% tip. Is the tip not the same as the service charge? We had excellent service so would you add 5% (to make it 20%) or 15% to the total?

They can recommend any amount they want but if 15% is included, nothing to 5% (or whatever you are comfortable with) is fine.

Cathy -----The 15% is a TIP not Service charge. Many restaurants started adding the 15% because some travelers either left nothing or very little as to tips. I make it a practice to add to the 15% based on the quality of service rendered by the server. I add between 5-15% additional if the service is good to excellent.
Unfortunately it has become necessary for restaurants to add the 15% to their checks due to the patrons that do not tip at all or very little when none is added to their check.

Don't forget, some servers/places will also imply of the 15% added on, a portion is the turn-over-tax, the owner gets some or all (not all goes to the staff) and a myriad of other excuses as to why it is not enough.

To be totally honest, I am sick to death with regard to the constant tipping scam often perpetrated on island visitors on both sides of the island, and the following is just my personal take on the whole issue. I'm not asking for people to agree or disagree but this is my honest opinion.

Tipping should be a choice issue and not mandated by anyone and should be freely given for reasonable service or happily given for great service. And it should be at the discretion of the diner, and NOT dictated by the restaurants or the restaurant owners.

I can't tell you how many times I've been given merely adequate service in places that used to be top shelf since this new form of dining ransom has overtaken the Dutch side of the island, and there has been at least one occasion I would not have tipped at all because the service was so poor. And don't even get me started with regard to the French side. My mantra is now "Don't ask, don't tell" when dining there.

I know this isn't a popular position to take but I don't feel personally responsible for paying the restaurants' taxes, which really should be built into the line item prices on the menu; nor do I feel I should be forced to tip for poor service.

I guess I'm getting old and crotchety but the truth is, I have no issue with a twenty percent plus tip for good service but I strongly resent being forced to tip for less than okay. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

I have to agree. This is not at all mandatory... A tip is when you were so pleased with service and wanted to give the waiter or waitress something extra. My opinion is!!! Service charge??? that is the tip... they can phrase it anyway they like, but added money to the bill for service is just that. And there have been more time than not, that we got horrible service. This issue seems to only bother americans. I could be wrong, but any tipping is not a have to do thing.... If your eating out a lot for a long period of time, this could become a huge burden.. But that's my opinion. Service added is just that...

pat--I am old and crotchety as well, and I totally agree with what you say. If we like the service or if it's even somewhat reasonable, we tip 20% or more. If they add 15% automatically, I tip zero extra. What I really object to is that many tourists don't expect to see an automatic tip, and so, having had a cocktail or two, often don't even see that the 15% has been added. If there's not a statement on the menu regarding the auto tip, I think it could be construed as an intent to deceive the customer..

Exactly what I was just going to post <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

While not old and crotchety like you and Carol, and as always, very well stated and I think many will agree and I am one that will.

I think some of the added service charge on the Dutch side is a result of Europeans dining there and not tipping as they expect it to be built into the menu price.

Right on Pat!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" /> The new thing now in the States is a lot of restaurants are doing "No Tipping". They are including the tips in their prices and paying the staff more money. Makes sense, why don't they all do it that way??? Americans are so self conscious when it comes to tipping, especially in SXM.

Nah, JD, you are old and crotchety also, just don't admit it!!!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

We were one of those "people/couples" Carol. Years ago at Bliss when they had dining we didn't realize a service charge had been added so we tipped on top of that. We were staying at the Caravanserai so we did not drive. Too much sun, too many cocktails and well....

When we figured it out later the server or restaurant manager because who knows who gets the "service charge/tip" winded up with a 35% tip.

If there is 15% added we typically do not leave additional monies. There are of course exceptions.

I kind of understand the problem. Visitors from the US understand tipping whereas visitors from Europe are more apt not to as service charge is usually included. If it's already in and service was good, I add some, if the service is wanting, inform the manager.

As many has already stated...rings out my feelings exactly. I hate being told what I HAVE to leave for service/tip or whatever else they can call it. I always leave minimum 20 percent wherever we go....but.....when I am told what i MUST tip...i rarely will leave any extra!!! The exception is when service has gone above and beyond!!! The added service charge is a scam...we all know it and so do the restaurant personnell and management/owners. They are hoping that after a few drinks, people won't notice, or are first time ''virgins'' to the island, and will double dip the tip!! It's a win/win for them....they make out either way..sometimes double. In most other industries, a practice of deceit would be illegal. New mantra should be "Diners Beware".

Always love this one when it comes up.
15% added regardless of the quality of food and service.
Of course we are to assume that good is the "norm" and we know what to do with "great", right?
But what about sub par? True, we can ask to speak to the manager but who's kidding whom? Most of us are reluctant to make waves.
So our options?
1. Don't go back.
2. When asked, be honest and relate your experience to others when asked.
3. Find alternatives that are not quite as greedy. They are out there.

Thanks to you, Pat, you hit the nail on the head!

I appreciate all the answers!
Pat, it seems that you are my voice of reason on this site. I almost always agree with you. And yes, I agree this time!
Don't you think wait staff hates this too?
My new resolve in regarding to tipping: What Carol said!

"If we like the service or if it's even somewhat reasonable, we tip 20% or more. If they add 15% automatically, I tip zero extra"

Carol, let me tell you and everyone why this attitude is so wrong. First of all, it's not the servers fault the owner is a greedy [censored]. Being the the business, I detest the service charge unless it is clearly stated. We always ask before we are seated about the service charge. We have no control if the owner splits the tips amongst the staff, or he keeps a percentage for himself. Unfortunately, if we knew, we would never patronize an owner who steals from his employees. When we were in Europe we understood how the SC worked, but tipped about 10% anyway if the service was good. Bottom line it's not fare to burn the server for doing his or hers job. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif" alt="" />

We eat mostly on the French side but in 20years going there we haven't had bad service anywhere. We add 10% to all bills. La croissanterie shakes his head no to more. We are never in a hurry when we dine. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/dine.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, I think my attitude is absolutely correct. Servers know what the owner's policy is, and if they don't like it, get a job somewhere else. I am not responsible if the owner is stealing from his employees.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> Carol.

Total agreement with Carol.

And let me tell you why your attitude is so wrong. You shouldn't be telling anyone how to spend their own money.

getting a job might not be that easy, a paycheck and feeding your children could be more important than finding the "right" job.

bdeeley, I am not telling anyone how to spend their money, not even close. You must have been reading a different post.

I am surprised with the response. I was posting as a frustrated restaurateur, who lives in a tipping world. I will not punish someone trying to make a living, because of a greedy owner. However if the service did not warrant a tip, that's a different story

Thanks for your input. Just curious as to how you would handle subpar or really bad service where the service charge is included?

I probably would not return. We have knocked 2 restaurants off our list as the owner is too cheap to offer free water. We are going to buy 2 drinks each, 2 meals and dessert, than refuse a glass of water, Buh-Bye

You've probably already considered this, but we were once told by a restaurant owner in a fairly popular place on the island that he prefers not to serve his tap water because, while it is totally potable and he has paperwork to attest to that fact, it neither smells nor tastes terrific. If someone insists, he will serve it if pressed to but he will also recommend sparkling or flat water instead without going into great detail with most people. Just sayin'...... <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

so his water is different, bull, it's called greedy, Toppers? A younger male bartender at Buccaneer told us, he serves water when the owner is not around as he gets too many complaints which equals lower tips. A few days later an older female bartender refused, saying she would be fired if she served free water, we left.

I can only imagine who the said bartender was, pretty sure I know.

Overall, we usually have pretty decent service everywhere we go. On the past trip there were two exceptions, both on the Dutch side. One is a very popular place at the end of the runway, and it did not surprise me since the 15% is added. The other was at a high-end, well established place with no 15% added and I was pretty shocked at 3 instances involving service, especially at this place.

I'm not certain but if you're inferring our problem was at Toppers, it was NOT since we rarely, if ever, go there in the first place, and after smelling the finally offered glass of tap water at the restaurant I was thinking of, I wouldn't drink it because of the odor. Nothing that smelled that foul could possibly taste good. Sparkling water s'il vous plait. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

Friends of ours had breakfast this morning at Bon Appetite. 15% was added and the server told our friends that the 15% was a tax and tip was not included and expected. They were so befuddled they left an extra 15%. They requested tap water and was only served bottled at $4.00 a small bottle. Needless to say they won't be back.

I would have walked the he!! out of there if that was ever said to me! How awful! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" />

Where these friends first time visitors? If not, they should have been aware of this "scam". I never bother to ask anywhere any longer as the canned answer is just what your friends were told. Do you know if they asked about the 15% or did the server just take it upon themselves to interject the false information?

Not first time visitors and know bwtter. They did not ask what the 15% was but was told by the server when the bill was presented that it was a tax. As I said they were befuddled and completely taken by surprise since the server asked for an additional 15%. Didn't want to make an issue so added 15% and left.

So here I am, assuming, but as I said in an earlier post, my mantra these days is "don't ask - don't tell" and it works for me. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

No disagreement here pat.

Scubaman, if they were not new visitors, befuddled or not, they ALLOWED themselves to be taken advantage of.

The fact the server OFFERED that information without being ask would have prompted me to ask for a manager. [color:"red"]MAJOR RED FLAG![/color] While the manager might have covered for the served, it might have also prompted the server to change their tune.

We won't go to Topper's for the same reason.

And perhaps an addendum to my mantra as previously stated......" and don't believe an eager waiter who tries to enlighten me!" A service charge in a restaurant is a tip regardless of what they call it or try to tell you.....

The only caveat to all I've said previously about this topic is if I go as a group I fully expect the 'house' to add a generous tip to the bill and I have no problem with that.

In an earlier life a gazillion years ago, I worked in a restaurant and made awesome tips, but not by trying to con or take advantage of the paying public. Serving tables is hard work but if you do a good job and try your darnedest to be nice (even though there's always that one table).......you can and will generally be well taken care of by John Q Public. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

100% correct pat.

I never worked in the food industry but I always thought people who did a good to outstanding job serving could make a good wage doing so. I know several people who have done it for years and have done well in the profession.

a server at bon apetit told us the same thing this past march...without our asking... I told my friend that was BS....we usually leave a couple extra $$ on top when they add the charge to the bill if we really liked the service...not this time!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/cloud.gif" alt="" />

And that is how it should be handled by the customer!

OK, then. Never eaten at Bon Appetite and I will never do so.. Nuff said..

" (even though there's always that one table)"

Pat, I could write a book. Recently a customer asked for a manager. I went to the table and asked how I could help. She said our Caesar Salad was awful and tasted like fish. So does our tuna, words I wish I could say. She must have been familiar with Kraft Creamy Caesar.

Reminds me of the story that Greg (of the Palms) told us about the customer complaining that the whole snapper was served....whole.

Most fish dishes that taste like fish have been mishandled. Tuna should not taste like fish, but of the sea.

the tuna was a joke, anchovies have a fishy taste. We only serve white meat albacore tuna for salads and sandwiches.

If they've added 15%, regardless of what they call it, "service charge," or other, it seems reasonable to give them another 5% to 10%, unless the service was horrendous. People should expect to pay at the very least 15% when they are in a restaurant. If you leave no tip at all, in a place where there is no built-in 15%, and you do so because of poor service, I think that's just as douchey a move as a waiter giving you that poor service to begin with.

When I make reservations for a large group at most restaurants in the US it is stated clearly that an 18% (or whatever) service charge will be added to the bill. That is the calculated and expected tip.

No difference with the service charge in SXM except it is usually misrepresented as something different. If I see a mandated service charge added then I treat it the same as in the USA and move on.

Just as "duuchey" as starting with an incorrect premise, then calling names? You are applying a US standard to the rest of the world. Europe has a very different salary / gratuity system than the US. And here, you are on a European island, not a US island. For the record, I am born, raised, proud to be an American, but really get tired of some of my countrymen thinking the world revolves around our way of doing things. It is a big world out there and one size does not fit all! (end of rant)

It is not a "standard" in SXM. It is a misrepresented practice found in SOME restaurants. If it was a "standard" it would be the same in all eating establishments.

"If you leave no tip at all, in a place where there is no built-in 15%, and you do so because of poor service, I think that's just as douchey a move as a waiter giving you that poor service to begin with. "
You've got to be kidding. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" /> I would never leave a tip for bad service. I would write a note instead telling them why I didn't just in case they didn't get the message. Or maybe just a nickle to get the point across.

Right on! I would never leave a tip for bad service and it's even worse to be charged that 15% when it is bad. That's when it is time to speak op.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

I think we have run this one to death. Tip what you choose. The informed SXM diner will decide what works for him or her.
(IMO) It's not a science and it can be influenced by bias, booze or guilt.
Enjoy your meal. Enjoy SXM.

Exactly that's why I tried to give a short quick explanation---but no one was listening!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the length of post but here goes...

I have to agree with SXMBND and there are a lot of new European owners who either have taken over operations of previous places or started a new one in its place and are used to the service charge fee besides the ones who are still protesting the increase that was supposed to be only temporary by adding a charge.

I owned a small restaurant in SXM for 6 yrs and closed in 2012 and at the time I decided to do this there were 362 operating restaurants on 36 square miles of rock. I wasn't insane and my plan included other services to supplement the business income.
It was small 50 seat capacity place and no, I didn't charge a service charge. I couldn't raise my prices to absorb the 5% increase due to the competition for what kind of menu I served. I had only 2 waitress bartenders at once and I didn't pool their tips, the tips were theirs as they should be. All I asked of them is that they each consider giving 30% to the chef because his speed and presentation helped make those tips. They did this without argument.

All servers on this island make minimum wage (or less) which is too low to handle living expenses. Rent, gas and groceries are not cheap as you know.
Over the years I met (and got more than business friendly) with a lot of business owners of larger places so I could gain insight of how things work down there. You folks would be a bit surprised on a number of things or issues that spur a lot of talk here...

The whole tipping issue is actually a small one, and you need to remember that there are a fair amount of travelers from around the world that visit here as well and do not tip at all or wouldn't even think about it so to an owner a service charge isn't any kind of crime, sometimes can only be a survival tool.

And I can honestly tell you that only some, but not all service charges equate to tips for the wait staff, that is the ugly truth.
Most of it goes to fees to credit card companies, offsetting a manager's pay, maybe utilities or a food bill and of course to offset or cover the turnover tax.

And another fact is that larger places that pool tips for the entire evening divide it up in percentages among the entire staff, including management, back of house etc. With the original server ending up with much less than anticipated. To me this is wrong to include management.

The comment of the owners being greedy bastards is just nonsense.
with rents as high as 8 to 9 thousand a month and no way to close for long periods of a low season, all business have to try to hang on after making any kind of money only 5-6 months of high season traffic out of an entire year. Running a place on this island is nothing near running a place in the states. Unless you are setting up in a very rural setting with minimal restrictions or rules, because it's really close to that analogy.
To be able to dine on a beautiful island vacation in so many ways and varieties as opposed to other similar destinations can sometimes come with a few extra dollars cost and really up to the individual to tip or not. but I would say rarely one is really out to "get you" at any of these places and should never ruin one's visit.

I'm in NYC where there is no service charge and tips are not added for parties of less than 6. Restaurants here also have managers, food bills and utilities etc. The menu prices are supposed to cover all operating expenses. Believe me, you wouldn't believe what restaurants here in Manhattan pay in rent.

All the factors you mentioned are just the price of doing business. Just increase the menu prices to reflect the costs and if you can't stay competitive then do something else. Same for any business. Tips are a gratuity you give because you want to give a reward. It's not to subsidize a business expense.

NYC is the least comparable location that you can give.
NYC is in the US so of course normal for no service charge, nor would laws and regulation allow it to be used like a tiny island nation does either. NYC restaurants get an enormous amount of traffic year round unlike a tourist island and don't get all of their food goods and meats shipped from overseas as well. There's no relation in menu prices compared to NYC... Did I leave out anything?

I agree and said I did not charge any 15% to any one except parties of 8 or more due to my size which is an American practice.

But Its not America, and I just happened to be an American owner. Its a predominantly European based island doing this practice, and your opinion does not matter to the people who charge it.
Everyone has the right to not frequent any establishment they deem to be unfair to you. But if you like it , you'll go back. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

I think the world should revolve more around paying a minimum of 15% when you go out to a restaurant. Less than 20% for bad service makes sense. Zero does not. (END OF RANT)

[quote]SXMScubaman said:
"If you leave no tip at all, in a place where there is no built-in 15%, and you do so because of poor service, I think that's just as douchey a move as a waiter giving you that poor service to begin with. "
You've got to be kidding. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" /> I would never leave a tip for bad service. I would write a note instead telling them why I didn't just in case they didn't get the message. Or maybe just a nickle to get the point across. [/quote

Paying 15% makes it clear to any wait person that they gave poor service. Giving them zero reflects more on the patron than the waiter.

Gee, I don't know, "paying 15% makes it clear to any wait person that they gave poor service"??? Really?? I think this one is done..