Going to the dark side: Herding Cats

OK. Apologies if this has already been discussed...

We are monohull people. We've owned monohulls for 20+ years, chartered through the caribbean on monohulls for 15+ years and are even outfitting a monohull now to live on.

On a lark, we are considering a cat for this year's trip. Is the switch like herding cats, or should I just hang my head for going to the dark side?

Seriously, what's the learning curve, difference between the two? I don't want to spend the whole 2 weeks figuring it out.

No problem making the switch. Downside - a little less pinching and a little more momentum to tack (small cats may have a little less kitchen storage space and counter top space). Upside - faster, spacious and less rocking, less leaning, space, trampoline, walk right into the salon from the cockpit, dingy not dragging.

Mollie, nothing to figure out, other then you don't heal, you reef much earlier then mono. I love and own a mono and if I won the lotto, i would still buy a bigger nicer mono. Twin engines make docking a piece of cake. You don't even need the steering wheel. We have chartered cats for big groups, not my thing. The biggest advantage is you can go through Mosquito Cut. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Get ready to motersail around at greater speed with more space for the crew to spread out at all levels coupled with greater privacy. In most cases females are instant converts. If you are there to sail mono, cruise and party = cat. A Real Suite vs Hotel Room.

I would not call cat cabins, suites, more like cubicles

yes on the cubicles... the reference is the living space and spread out space the cats provide. they simple have more square feet of usable common space. With two couples or less we go with 50ft mono's with more than 4 we charter the largest newest cat and drive the condo, bus, motor home from spot to spot.

You haven't been on the right Cat if you think they have cubicles for cabins.

Saba 50 Sail Magazine

holy crap, beautiful Jay, guess I've looked at too many older Voyage and Lagoon Cats. I'll still take the mono. You're an old salt dog, you know what I mean. I have been racing monos since the 60's.

The SABA 50 is a great boat but at over 1 million dollars in a basic charter configuration it's not cheap. Paying 1.1 million will buy you a monohull with amazing space and room also.
George

Happy Admiral = Happy Vaca. I prefer a cat.

On vacation I prefer cats, on the racecourse, I prefer monos.

Water ski, mono... Snow ski, cat.

Kind of strange how that works?

Holy cow, that is one awesome cat!

I enjoy racing monos but love to charter cats with family and friends, we get great performance, lots of space, separation of cabins, stability and easy handling in tight quarters, it's cats for me on charter.

I have looked at the SABA 50 quite a bit the last week. With a couple partners it might be a interesting boat to have in charter. There are some worts. The first is the pics shown are for the owners version with 4 cabins. At over a million dollars you will need the 6 cabin charter version. Reselling the charter version could be a issue. The 4 cabin owners version I don't think can generate enough revenue to pay its way. Still if a guaranteed income could be worked out on the owners version it could be a interesting concept to think about!
The other wort for me is terrible water access for diving and other water sports. I suspect that's a bigger issue for me then some but we all have to have our wants!
Again when comparing a cat to a monohull price should be the factor. You can purchase a 500k new monohull with a owners cabin as good as the SABA50 and 3 more doubles giving the same cabin space. Sq footage in the salon would be similar but you give up cockpit space and the tramps in the mono.
George

Have you also looked at the Leopard 58 George? Possibly same issue with resale, but it has excellent access for diving. The upper deck is also amazing.

I just chartered a leopard 48. Really nice boat for charter but it just reeked of let's see how cheaply we can build a boat. Don't know if that would carry over to the 58 but I suspect that boat is out of our price range even with 3 partners.
G

Mark,
Kyle was on board last week as a skipper, he reported doing 10 plus knots at 50 degrees off the wind in 16 knots of wind. She can sail as well.

Jay

Wow! Good speed light wind! Hmmmm might be our next charter!

Jay, we will be in STT on Feb 24th, will stop by to see her if she's in port.

So, can anyone relate the experience of the first time chartering (skippering) a cat after years of chartering monohulls?

What's the learning curve, most difficult thing? I can back a monohull with a 15' beam into a 16' slip, but have never dealt with twin screws and what looks to be a more difficult helm view.

What new boat can you buy that is charter ready for $500k that has an owner space remotely comparable to this Saba? Yes you can get a 4 cabin mono but the other three cabins are going to be a fraction of the space unless there is some new manufacturer that I'm not aware of. The cabins on the Saba could be even larger but they did an excellent job providing storage. Working for CYOA for many years and having been on every Fountaine Pajot cat from 36'-50' plus cats from Gemini, Lagoon, Leopard, Voyage, Catana and Gunboat, I don't gush about boats. I had read the reviews on the Saba, read the Boat of the Year article in Sail magazine, and saw this hull #2 on the dock at CYOA. My first impression was it seemed like a nice boat. Once I got the sails up and started moving up the Channel from Norman to North Sound I realized that this cat is actually pretty fast in fairly light winds. The charter guests invited many "new friends" on board to tour her when we anchored. The typical response was "WOW". The fact that I easily hit double digits upwind and held 8kts pointing at about 40 degrees apparent tells me this boat sails too!! I don't know anything about the finances of theoretically "making a boat work in charter". I do know that people that truly enjoy sailing will enjoy this boat. The people that really like independence will love it too. With 8 on board we never ran out of water or ice thanks to the watermaker and ice maker. My one and only time of gushing about a boat on this forum is now over. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Don't do it!! You won't go back and you'll want to sell your future live-aboard mono!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Wink.gif" alt="" />

Making the switch is easy. We chartered a Lagoon 47 after years of mono sailing and had no problems. You have to reef based on wind speed, the boat won't tell you when to reef like a mono can. Also you won't be able to point as high and tacking about 100 deg or slightly more. Use the main traveller alot more. That's about the only differences in sailing. For living conditions, no comparison. When we see mono's swinging like metronomes in an anchorage, we're barely moving. You can leave your beer on the galley counter while you fix a sandwich standing straight up sailing at 10 knots. You can turn the boat inside its own length. Docking is a piece of cake. I'm telling you, if you plan to cruise, you're making a dangerous move trying a cat!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

The Bavaria 56 was the specific mono I had in mind. I was given a charter ready price under 500k. Charter ready on the Saba was just under 1.1 million!
George

The biggest changes are tacking, pointing and approaching a mooring. The first two have been covered. For approaching a mooring the best advise I got was leave the wheel straight ahead and do all maneuvering with the engines.

Also, when hoisting sail, if you will use one engine to back to keep pointed into the wind (instead of ahead on one engine)It really decreases apparent wind and is easier on everyone (provided you have enough water behind you)

I am in the same boat so to say (no pun intended!). Trying to get the wife back down, but she is fighting the mono, especially with 3 kids. I have sailed and raced mono's for 20 plus years and enjoy the "sailing" of the mono. Looks like it is time to make the change as well if I want to get back down.

Question I have is how does a smaller cat, say a 38' handle the seas? I usually stick with 42'-44' mono. I assume the cockpit area of the cat is easier to corral kids than the mono?

I have seen captains compass and Cat Co has some great cat rates. Anyone have any feedback on their boats?

Mike

Mike,

That's a good question I hadn't thought about. We also normally get a 42' to 45' monohull. Would the equivalent cat be shorter?

We've been sailing with our kids since before the youngest was born. This trip will be me and the admiral, plus our 2 youngest, now 18 and 21.

You really can't get too much shorter on a cat without that feeling cramped.

Our Mono is a 43' Beneteau. 3 cabins, 3 heads. A 40' cat gives us an extra cabin and all cabins are roomier. It has fewer heads at 2 but over all has a lot more space.

So it really depends on what you want. Get a little bigger and everyone can have their own private head. Smaller and you are likely sharing heads. Given there will only be 4 of you, I'd probably go with something around 40'.

We had 7 comfortably on 39 foot Mardi Gras last summer, great new cat! Self tacking headsail and all lines run to the helm for single handling! Owner Tony (Mardi Gras) is a TTOL'er

We will be for sure bringing the 3 yr old and 5 yr old. 5 yr old was down with us when she was 2 and is excited to go. Not sure how she remembers being down there! So, I am thinking a 38 lagoon may be fine with kids that age/size?

Was really trying to figure out length. I have done the 36' mono and had the snot beat out of us in open water were the 42' mono makes a huge difference. Does the same apply for the cats?

Mike

I have not found the size of a cat to make a big difference in comfort sailing. Been on as small as a 39' and as large as a 58'. There is certainly some difference, but with the typical conditions we find in the BVI, not a major difference.

first of all who's an admiral, second why does the admiral equal a cow <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

This Admiral actually prefers monos -- we're getting a cat for the next trip because there are 8 of us on board - less headaches..especially since two of the couples are newbies.

I'm having a hard time coming up with anything I'd call difficult or requires much of a learning curve - more like "adjustments" to what you already do. SeaSeaRider nailed the things that are different. I have read a few reviews where the helm position made it difficult to see the opposite hull but that is a design issue. It is a little weird to look over and see the distant hull is a lot further away than you're used to the first time you go to a dock. Steering with the engines is a delight.

Basically any experienced monohull sailor is going to have no real problems with a cat. The principles are all the same. In many ways the cat is easier. Generally a smaller portion of the sail area is in the head sail which makes tacking easier and handling around docks is a delight unless the wind is howling!
G

We chartered with Captains Compass in November, on the 39' Beneteau Chachaa. Have almost all good things to say about Brent and his operation. We found it to be a tremendous value. The boats are a bit older, but well cared for. If you're ok with that, you won't find a boat for less.

PM me if you have questions or would like more details, happy to fill you in on our experience.

The first time we chartered a cat, someone summed it up for me. He said, "Once you get used to the fact that you are sailing a tennis court, everything will be fine." Not as much fun as sailing a mono but all that sq footage and no heel are nice.
Lew

I find that while they heel much less, shorter cats will 'hobby horse' a bit more than a mono in a sea. It is just a different sensation than on a mono...some people don't mind, long time mono sailors will definitely notice.

There is a very distinct chain of command on our boat. I am the captain. I serve at the pleasure of the "admiral" otherwise know as the wife.

vaca is cow in Spanish, the Admiral, in my opinion, is a derogatory term for a male charter's wife who doesn't know how to sail. Quite frankly, my wife, who is a capable sailor hates the term. Unless your Susanne Giesemann, who is a Coast Guard Commadore

"Vaca" is also short for vacation <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvGJvzwKqg0

Ugg.. This thread wasn't exactly highjacked for awhile as opposed to just being taken down a different path for a bit - that I enjoyed. We aren't speaking Spanish here, so I think everyone knows that "vaca" was used in the current urban slang for vacation.

My wife, I will openly call her the Admiral, and she laughs about it. Yes: I captain the boat and it's irrelevant that she was sailing 5+ years before i even started. It's a joke along the lines of "happy wife, happy life".

Let's clink glasses and have another round. I truly asked the question in my original post because this will probably be the last charter we take before starting our "cut the lines" life and I'm interested in if I want to let the "cat out of the bag" (last pun) before we tie ourselves to our monohull.

Thanks to all.

congrats, go with your heart, take the mono <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Do both kids need their own cabin?

You could try the Lipari 41 cat -- has a 3-cabin version - Capt Jay has one at CYOA I believe as does BVI Yacht Charters - reviews on them are quite good as to how they sail. We have a 4-cabin version for our May charter. It will give you a comparison. I say give the cat a try. I still prefer monos but why not check it out? It's just a charter....

We have three with the owners layout and one four cabin. The newest one leaves France any day, it has an ice maker, water maker, Generator and Air Conditioning Perfect for the SVI's. Oh yeah and a really cool name "Narcosis".

Jay

The owners versions are awesome. We were on a moorings 3900 in July. Loved it! That would be the best way to try out a cat.

We're really looking forward to sailing one in May -- we now unexpectedly have 8 on board so it will be tight in the 4-cabin version...but I think we'll survive <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

Only if it's because they are both over 6'. As kids on our 38', I'd find both of them, with 2 friends, all stuffed in the V-berth playing games or watching videos.

They will fold up origami style just about anywhere...and be able to sleep.

I just got back from our trip where I flipped over to the "dark side." I have 2 boys who are 6'4" and our last trip on a mono had been a bit tight. I was a little worried about manuevering the 42 foot Cat but if you are that good at manuevering a monohull you will have no problems with a Cat. It was easier to dock, much more comfortable for the 7 of us (3 boys over 6 feet, my husband and I, my daughter and my 83 year old mother), faster speeds on a broad reach and while motoring and a lot more privacy for all of us with the 4 cabins and 4 heads. I am sold and don't know if we can go back to chartering a monohull when we have the kids. Downsides: it didn't sail very well at all on a close reach, tight spaces were a little stressful just because it was so wide. Someone told me it was like driving a tennis court and they were exactly right! You do have to rememember to reef much more often and earlier than a monohull. I'm a little anal so I took an online course about sailing a Cat that was fabulous. It was http://www.nauticed.org/ I say go for it and enjoy your trip.