Rocking, rolly all night long!

We picked up a mooring ball last night at White Bay, JVD. It was the roughest night we have EVER spent anywhere!! We rocked and rolled all night. And it wasn't even windy enough to to sail yesterday and today. Drats!

The forecast was and is very clear for a northwest swell. Small 11 second swell that will roll into the shallow water and roll every boat. A little bigger and more to the west the wave break and throw the boats onto the beach just like the sand. Always check the swell forecast particularity for change during the night before you overnight in White Bay or any place wide open like that. The wrong shift at the wrong time will put every boat on the beach or up against the rocks.

Jib - Where do you typically check for these forecasts?

Play around with wind guru. http://www.windguru.cz/int/index.php?sc=522780&sty=m_spot

It will show primary and secondary swells.

Obviously direction is important. What should we watch for in swell period ?

Swell height is measured in open water... swells with a longer period move faster and contain more energy and expend that energy when they reach shore. I generally take notice when the swell period is in double digits.

I clicked on this wind guru link and, as I read it, the swells are S-SW, so White Bay should be protected and comfortable. Am I reading the table incorrectly? Intuitively, the arrow head I would think would point in the direction the swell is traveling. I'm going on my 3rd BVI bareboat charter in the summer and would like to use wind guru for planning my itinerary.

Thanks!

North swell is in effect....things should improve by Tuesday-ish <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

We had a solid 6 to 8 foot swell hitting the north shore of Tortola yesterday..waves were overhead for the surfers..really nice day for surfing..not so good if you were anchored in CGB or White Bay. Swell has dropped by half already today. Yesterday at high tide we were getting spray over the wall here at CRC..One day we had a beautiful beach..next day big waves..

you can also look here for a real time graph of the N swell coming.
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/show_plot.php?s...;time_label=GMT

If you are going to stay anywhere unprotected you want stable or non changing conditions unless you are an expert on the location and can predict how a change will impact where your boat will be in the middle of the night. White Bay is wide open and adjacent to other larger islands. White Bay can be impacted by swells directly in its direction or waves crashing onto the larger nearby islands and echoing their way to White Bay. In some cases these swifts can happen almost instantly. In moments a peaceful open bay is tranquil then boom untenable. That is why open and often crowded White Bay is off limits to many charter boats. Dark night, the sudden appearance of waves or swell, inexperienced or intoxicated crews... stuff happens? If you see sand on the shore waves threw that sand there. When the conditions go bad they can throw boats up there just like the sand.

Is Great Harbour protected from swells like this or will "echoing" waves get up in there too?

Great Harbour is protected.

We had this same night last March. Boat rocked & rolled and kept smacking our mooring ball all night. This year, we're going to JVD white bay for the day and mooring in Great Harbour for the night.

Lcrich, you are very fortunate you did not break loose. A north swell at White Bay is downright dangerous. We have anchored at White Bay many times, but only in favorable weather conditions

The forecast for that night was for a bad N swell and also a chance of storms. Not a night to even consider staying in White Bay. I would only overnight there with a perfect forecast.
G

There was a time when White Bay was redlined by many charter companies. Not sure that is still the case, but this shows exactly why it was. I will never forget snorkelling in the bay and seeing the debris of a boat wreck. I had no idea it had happened a couple of days beforehand and it was shocking to see things like crockery, cutlery, pillows and towels on the sea bed, plus untold damage to the coral reef. Not a place for an over night stay unless you can (and of course, you rarely can) be 100% certain of the potential conditions.

One bad night there was enough for me. Seas were calm all day. Swell rolled in after dark and we had 3 -4 foot breakers on the reef. An old 50 foot steel hull mono tried to escape about midnight and he washed up on the reef. The breakers finally bounced him over the reef and he got an anchor down. Sleepless night for everyone that night. Im like you George it would be a very convincing forecast before i would stay there again. Too easy to motor around the corner to any of the other protected spots at JVD.

It was redlined because the entries through the reef were not marked.

It was and is red lined for a long list of reason starting with getting in, then weather and sea state changes during both the day and night, overcrowded intoxicated operation, and then the same danger for many trying to leave in any condition.

We have a boat in charter and White Bay is indeed redlined. We sail at least 3 times a year and find grabbing a mooring ball at Great Harbor and taking the dingy over to White Bay is no big deal. As an owner I expect all charter's first concern is to protect the safety of their chartered boat. Anything less and please rent another boat. White Bay is redlined by most companies for good reason. Not mooring at White Bay won't detract from a great sailing experience

We looked at weather that night and did not see anything.
And zero wind all day! Guess we need a new weather channel!

I've chartered w/ Moorings, Sunsail, Footloose and Conch Charters. None of their charts or pre-chart briefing instructions mentioned red lining JVD WB.

However, I have never overnighted there, even left one time because the traffic was too crazy! Last trip, we arrived early and left by mid afternoon to Little Harbour to avoid the crazies. I wouldn't want to be faced with moving late after a day of drinking Soggy Dollar Painkillers!

Did you look at and can you translate how the swell forecast will change the conditions in the White Bay anchorage? The change in swell that has traveled thousands of miles is the biggest threat once inside the anchorage. I short micro burst can be scary but manageable for the few minutes they normally last. Waking up to rollers is an entirely different animal. I was in Salt Whistle Bay, Mayreau one afternoon where the swell switch and in minutes all the cat on anchored in the shallow water ended up on the beach. The mono's in deeper water just swung and rolled. The cats were launched onto the beach. All in minutes.

I would try and find a go to weather site. I use this one.
http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/fmtbltn.pl?file=forecasts/marine/coastal/am/amz715.txt

Here was their forecast for the night in question.


EAST WINDS 5 TO 10 KNOTS. SEAS 4 TO 7 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 8 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 10 SECONDS. NORTH SWELL 4 TO
6 FEET. SCATTERED SHOWERS.

At least there is the potential for highly reliable short term swell forecasts.

White Bay is not redlined by most charter companies. Maybe yours but not the TUIGroup charter companies which dominate the market and many others.

jphart - you make a good point about the afternoon at soggy dollar and then making it back to Great Harbour to grab a mooring ball for the night. Is it a fairly easy dinghy ride from Great Harbour to Soggy Dollar?

It is fairly easy..BUT..stay close to the shore..there have been a couple of very nasty incidents of dinghys and kayaks getting run over..

Check out the SDB webcam. Rarely are there boats there around sundown. I was there midday and had s!?$ tossed all around our boat after a few hours. Great Harbour is a much better choice for an overnight mooring.

Last year most of the charter companies did redline White Bay. Reason being it has more boat damage done than any other place in the BVI. There was a thread about this last year. We love sharing our boat and in doing so appreciate people respecting the investment in our boat. Most if not all owners expect the same. Why put your entire vacation at risk let alone increase the likelihood of damage just to sail into the most dangerous spot in the BVI when you can still get there with a 5 minute dingy ride?

between Great Harbor and White Bay is "Pull and be Damn' Point"
http://mapcarta.com/19500564

You keep saying "most" charter companies have redlined White Bay. By "most" do you mean the number of boats or "most" by the number of invdividual companies regardless of the fleet size. Which charter companies have redlined?

Over time I expect all the operators have or will at one point ban visits to the place. I have decades of BVI charter charts that show the White Bay off limits. It depends on who is in charge at the moment. The insurance underwriter, marketing and sales arm, or the guys who have to fix the boats or explain to the next guest on the dock why their reserved yacht is unavailable. White Bay would never fit the definition of safe to the prudent mariner. Wide open for 180 degrees, very shallow area immediately adjacent to deep open water with one a narrow passage to get out. A very small, very shallow anchorage with an unforgiving shore. The place is textbook for disaster and there is real good history of boats lost there in minutes. On top of the small unsafe unprotected anchorage we load in drunks, amateurs, and their "helpful" crews, guests, and admirals. I have gone in there for years with rental boats. I would not take my own boat that was important to me in there. Too much risk from the guy I do not know next to me. Back to the charter operator. To them it is like running a skating rink. Some customers will get hurt, it is a cost of doing business. If the operators redlined all the areas that should be redlined. The proper places would be very crowded that is bad for business. No prudent mariner should be in Cane Garden or Deadmans Bay either. Back to White Bay before you go in there make sure you know whether the swell is forecast to change in size or direction. Make sure you and your entire crew is ready to exit at a moments notice. Otherwise be prepared to get off the boat and call the charter company to come get the boat parts off the beach/reef.

If and when the weather changes the boats crowded into White Bay are trapped and cornered by the swell or wind that suddenly came roaring in:

I agree Storm Jib, White Bay is and should be a day mooring for charterers.
If you're on your own boat and decide to overnight it that's fine. M
Personally I would never overnight it there. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

I am not advocating for White Bay as an overnight anchorage. I have not done so in 25 years of sailing the BVIs. I am merely questioning the generalization that "most" charter companies have redlined White Bay.

The only charter company I know is Captains Compass. Which I believe who Jagman uses.

Interesting info. TMM did not redline it when we chartered last spring. But knowing what I know now we won't be overnighting there next month.

This is a very lame question... What is the difference between waves and north swell?

Most of what you get as far as waves are wind driven. Generally out of the East in the BVI. Wind driven waves are generally short duration and peaky making for a poor boat ride going into the wind.
The North swell common in the winter is a long duration deep wave that originates off the Eastern US. The swells roll all the way down to Caribbean. They are very comfortable to sail in even when large as they provide a nice smooth motion. They become a problem when they hit shallow water and become steeper faced or even breaking waves. Because they are moving large amounts of water they can work their way around and into anchorages that don't even face North.
You can have a north swell on a otherwise perfectly calm day. You can also have a strong east wind that will produce the wind chop 90 degrees to the swell.
Since the swell originates far away the forecasting is very accurate. It's almost down to the hour when they will begin and end . There is no reason to be surprised. I often change my itinerary based on the swell forecast. You don't want to be overnighting in CDB or White Bay with a swell predicted.
G

CGB and WB become dangerous in certain swell conditions.

Cooper and some times marina cay become uncomfortable in certain swell Conditions. As these two have wide entrances to the anchorage and are deep, they are not dangerous. They boat may roll uncomfortably on its mooring.

Add the cut from Monkey Point to Marina Cay to the list of dangerous places in a north swell.

you can cab it from Great Harbor as well...thus avoiding all of the conversation regarding ground swells, crowded anchorages, dangerous dingy rides and drunken sailors...just sayin.

The link is a shot of Cane Garden Bay, I would not want to wake up to that starting up at 1:00AM. Like was said, understand the swell forecast. Also as noted above the deeper water you are in while anchored or moored the lesser effect of the swell.
http://www.wannasurf.com/spot/Central_Am...la-CIMG1029.jpg

This is all great (enlightening) information. We've overnighted at both White Bay and CGB on several occasions and never had an issue (in early December). Weren't even aware that they were fair-weather anchorages. Good to know.

It's interesting that the charter companies don't have a web site devoted to when to stay away from certain bays.

LOL. (Think you got a typo)!!

Thank you George!

Typo fixed. Apologies if anyone was offended.

I think many, if not most, repeat charterers to the BVI have experienced at least one night of rock-n-roll, if not worse ( as in drifting and colliding boats).

The question becomes, how does one inform the choices made when choosing an overnight location ?

I think the answer to that means being better informed, but getting better information also involves significant choices of HOW to get better information.

Luck only goes so far. The downside of a misinformed choice can be much worse than a sleepless night.

Some learning and reading here, accepting the experiences of others, is not a bad start to informing oneself.

Their lawyers will never want to take on that responsibility. At some point most of the places we enjoy with sand shores are unsafe. One of the laws of the sea is each captain is responsible for his own vessel and its safety. If a significant change is expected there is a good chance but no guarantee that someone local will knock on your hull with a heads up. If you are not at the dancing on the bar at the time? If you do not check your own weather and swell forecast late each day? You should be prepared to exit any of the open anchorages at a moments notice no matter what time the clock or contract say. If you can see open sea in any direction. One day wind, swell, and waves will come roaring in from that direction.

It seems to me that they have that responsibility anyway. The hull damage waiver paid by charterers is not really insurance. It self insurance. If there is a hurricane coming, they notify the charter boats. If their web site even had some links to swell and weather info, that could be helpful.

Well it's defined as an act of God.

Remember the idea or concept that you have internet coverage on a boat is very new and even with coverage many do not carry the devices. A prudent mariner and competent skipper is expected to be able to determine where and when to anchor on there own. I do not see any of the corporate operators getting into the business on what boats will be safe where on any given night. Keep in mind the location in the harbor can make a difference between OK and disaster. When storm warning are posted by the governing authorities the boats are hailed to return to port. Simply check your cruising guide each anchorage is noted when it is protected, unprotected, and those that are safe only in settled weather. If you are not positive the weather is "settled" do no try to stay there.

To expand on a question asked earlier, which number matters more, the 'Swell' or 'Swell period'? And how does the secondary swell play a part in it? I heard previously that a swell of more than 3 or 4ft was problematic in CGB and WB. It sounds like there may be more to it, though. Your expert opinions are appreciated.

Here's a Windguru reading as reference...

http://www.windguru.cz/int/index.php?sc=58

It really is more about direction. with height being a close second. remember some sites show in feet, others in meters. BIG difference.

CYOA redlined White Bay when we chartered with them.

Not a chance in hell I'd bring our boat in there- between the crowds during the day (we've seen MULTIPLE crashes) and the potential danger overnight it's totally not worth it.

We only dinghy from Great Harbour if conditions are VERY sunny & VERY flat seas. We've been caught on the way back from White Bay in a torrential rain, with a 9 hp dinghy motor & 6 of us frantically bailing water out with our painkiller cups. It was funny at the time because the sea was flat, but it could easily get ugly...just as simple to cab over from Great Harbour. Or a good way to walk off your Corsair's breakfast burrito by hiking over (and cabbing back!)

Here is a website that discusses swells.

http://magicseaweed.com/help/forecast/swell

http://magicseaweed.com/Cane-Garden-Bay-Surf-Report/480/

You are correct, the hull damage waiver is not insurance. Ever charter boat either has an individual policy or is part of a fleet policy. The damage waiver basically covers the deductible of the yacht's insurance policy.

Each skipper is responsible for operating the boat safely and ensuring the crew and boat are not harmed. If you feel that you need a website to tell you when and where to anchor/moor safely, please consider hiring a professional captain. Or at least don't charter my boat... ;-)

This is silly. A website is just another source of information. If you need a chart to know where to anchor/moor safely I guess you don't qualify either?

No one is going to create a website declaring White Bay or Cane Garden Bay or any other place safe or unsafe by the day or hour. If you know the weather to be settled take your chances in there against a possible lee shore for a few hours. If there is any doubt on if the weather is stable or unstable. The boat and your guests will be better elsewhere. Stable means both the wind and the sea and the two may have nothing to do with one another. You can have absolutely no wind and experience the swell crashing in from a storm days ago thousands of miles away. Leave a boat anchored or on a mooring long enough in White Bay or Cane Garden Bay and you will experience god putting that boat on the beach, reef, or rocks. It is just a matter of time. In White Bay a drunk can crash into you at any time.

That's why our boat is not available for charter. Besides, what we are really talking about could come under the heading local knowledge. This is or should be part of the chart briefing. The briefing should also cover the local area tools to help the newbie stay safe.

Looks like somewhat of as N Swell headed to the VI this weekend

3 to 4 feet right now on the North Shore..

Swell right now then a short break and back for the weekend!

COASTAL WATERS FORECAST
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SAN JUAN PR
1050 AM AST TUE OCT 27 2015

PUERTO RICO AND U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS WATERS

SEAS ARE PROVIDED AS A RANGE OF THE AVERAGE HEIGHT OF THE HIGHEST 1/3
OF THE SEAS...ALONG WITH THE OCCASIONAL HEIGHT OF THE AVERAGE HIGHEST
10 PERCENT OF THE SEAS.

AMZ715-280330-
COASTAL WATERS OF NORTHERN USVI AND CULEBRA OUT 10 NM-
1050 AM AST TUE OCT 27 2015

REST OF TODAY
NORTHEAST WINDS 5 TO 10 KNOTS. SEAS 2 TO 4 FEET
WITH OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 5 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 10 SECONDS. NORTH SWELL UP
TO 4 FEET. NUMEROUS SHOWERS AND SCATTERED THUNDERSTORMS.

TONIGHT
EAST WINDS 10 TO 15 KNOTS. SEAS 3 TO 5 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 6 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 10 SECONDS. NORTH SWELL UP TO
4 FEET. NUMEROUS SHOWERS AND SCATTERED THUNDERSTORMS.

WEDNESDAY
EAST WINDS 5 TO 10 KNOTS. SEAS 3 TO 5 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 6 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 10 SECONDS. NUMEROUS SHOWERS
AND SCATTERED THUNDERSTORMS.

WEDNESDAY NIGHT
EAST WINDS 5 TO 10 KNOTS. SEAS 3 TO 5 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 6 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 10 SECONDS. ISOLATED
THUNDERSTORMS IN THE EVENING. SCATTERED SHOWERS THROUGH THE NIGHT.

THURSDAY
EAST WINDS 5 TO 10 KNOTS. SEAS 3 TO 5 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 6 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 13 SECONDS. SCATTERED SHOWERS
AND ISOLATED THUNDERSTORMS.

FRIDAY
EAST WINDS AROUND 10 KNOTS. SEAS 2 TO 4 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 5 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 11 SECONDS. NORTH SWELL UP TO
4 FEET. SCATTERED SHOWERS. ISOLATED THUNDERSTORMS.

SATURDAY
EAST WINDS 10 TO 15 KNOTS. SEAS 2 TO 4 FEET WITH

Does that match up to this WindGuru report? I'm still trying to interpret the importance of Height, Period, Direction, and Primary/Secondary.

http://www.surf-forecast.com/weather_maps/British-Virgin-Islands

I would take these combined sources to say.

Bubbly pool will be good, not dangerous

CGB will see some wave breaks on the reef that might make it a bit rolly

I'd stay away from WB

Stay out of the outer moorings at Cooper towards point a quart


but, thats just my judgement.

On a much more general and broader perspective. The forecast is not "settled" the wind direction with shift, the swell direction will change. You could anchor in one condition and find another condition in just a few hours.

This has been a very useful thread. I have picked up 2 new web sites to cionsider

You're right at this time of the year the seasons are changing and North swells will become more common and enter the area with little or no warning.

Can someone provide a link to an image of a sailboat on shore in white Bay? Thanks in advance.

http://threesheetsnw.com/files/2014/12/boat-run-aground.jpg

Perhaps someone will have better luck searching than I, and can refresh our memories of the Mr Bill wreck last year .

It's amazing how these ship designers think of every type of situation.
<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/toast.gif" alt="" />

I think this is the thread you're looking for:

http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/s...part=5&vc=1

Thanks Collen, that is exactly what I am looking for.

Thank you Colleen, that is exactly the thread.

We picked up the farthest west mooring in White Bay about 10 years ago on a late February night. Calm when we tied up. Ended up the worst night ever on a mooring in the BVI in 35 trips. Believe it or not the dinghy filled and sank to 3 inches above water. Engine submerged. OMG what an adventure.

I had a night caused by a Thunderstorm in WB I will not forget. Had a boat drag down on us at 3 AM and snag our anchor chain. A mess to sort out with waves breaking over the reef. The mono that snagged us was being slammed down on its keel in the troughs of each wave.
I also watched a Moorings 4300 drag onto the reef after a 90 degree wind shift while crew was ashore.
G

The other version that happens in tight spaces all the time. A boat wakes to terror of slamming the keel on the bottom. They somehow retrieve their anchor and run/flee the the tight harbor at great speed and snag another now taught in shallow water anchor chain with their own keel or rudder. The result the secure at anchor vessels is launched into the side of the boat trying to flee. In most cases the crews of both boats are clueless how boat B slammed into the side of boat A. Bedlam ensues. The point small tight anchorages are fraught with danger and never cross near the bow of any anchored boat. You just do not know where the chain is waiting to capture your moving boat. The first hint may be the other boat rapidly accelerating toward your cockpit.

Thanks to all for the education on the North Swell as well as the pitfalls of certain "particular harbors". Also the telltale signs of when the s#@t hits - what may be the cause.

Looks like a 3-4 foot north swell for the next few days. Diminishing on Monday.
Low to moderate winds. Wheels up in 10 hours!

Should work out fine for us, tomorrow at Nanny Cay, next day at Scrub on slip, the next, who the heck knows.

This post has certainly opened my eyes to potential trouble spots in paradise. I realize that there are always exceptions to the rule, but for the most part are all anchorages within Sir Francis Drake Channel protected well enough for overnight stays?

depending, mono or cat? There are several anchorages we stay away from in a mono

Mono. A Jeanneau 44 from TMM.

Cooper can be very rolly, watch your weather and swell info.

Much thanks. That's our second night's stay.

Cooper is a beautiful spot. However the swells can trick you. It can be flat for hours and then you ROLL. Lasts a period of time and then pretty calm again. It's not dangerous, but is very uncomfortable, especially when the rolling starts around bedtime. Fortunately, there are no breaking waves at the mooring field. The rolling is even more uncomfortable when the wind and swells are from different directions.

To clarify, the anchorage at Cooper Island is exposed and can get rolly in rough sea conditions not just north swells. We spent a bad night there several years ago when the channel got cut up in 6-8' seas from easterly winds.

It seems like it's always fine when we go to bed, but the swells start rolling in around 2am.

I agree 100% with this. Calm all afternoon too.

I love White Bay, we were married there, but it is best as a summer anchorage.
I have literally been airborne with the rollers. Best to spend the night in Great Harbor and dingy over during the day.