Chinese company will build airport extension

Just announced that a Chinese company was the low bidder on the airport extension. 150M They will use Chinese workers, trucks and materials. This should be interesting in that locals will not be building the airport. I guess they will not be paying into the NHI medical funds either or BVI social security. I suspect this project will not be over budget. Don't know where the money will come from. Interesting times. Hope Southwest comes in with their new purchase of 500 more planes. That would change things for the better in the BVI. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />

Good idea, always go with the low bidder, because stuff like this never goes over budget LOL

Guess if you can't buy it made in China have China come make it for you...

There is no reason a contract like this should go over budget. Should be a fixed price contract. NO overruns.
No excuses.

I have not kept track of what the plans are since I figured it would probably not happen in my life time.

Anyone give me a quick summary or point me to a summary of the runway extension plans? I assume they extend farther into Trellis bay? How long of a runway?

Last plan I saw was an extension into Trellis Bay on pilings with water flowing between the pilings so Trellis Bay would not be stagnant. Something like 7000 ft (3700 ft now) enough for a 737,321, 757 etc

Right.... A government project that went over budget? Never happens...

The pilings plan was ditched long ago - too expensive. They are just going to pile a lot of rubble and pave over it.

The contractor sold the government on the pilings plan and then ditched it after it was approved. As mentioned above, it was too expensive to drive pilings into that deep of water.

That's a lot of rubble. Where are they going to get the fill?
<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

What is the planned completion date?

I think Sage Mtn's elevation may have to drop by several hundred feet to get all the fill! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

In the spirit of Sir Richard's green mission, he's offered as much lemur poop as they'll take off his hands. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

SW will generally not operate a market unless it can merit at least 4 flights per day. That is why you don't see them in STT. The 737 versions they operate would also have restrictions that could limit payload.

Just like the sand on "nice" US beaches and Disney World. The stuff will be barged in.

It is also believed that the Chinese bid was low becaue they are expected to provide their own workers, equipment where practical and even allegedly their own rocks for the project.

Whereas, while IDL Group, Sir Robert McAlpine Holdings and local partner ADC bid was much higher their plans were to use all local workers, equipment, truckers and other tools, therefore keeping the money in the territory.

Or take it off Beef Island so the Chinese guy who owns it can then build a golf course. Great fodder for conspiracy theorists!

Too bad I don't have the time to wordsmith this article to start a conspiracy theory.
Getting on a plane to go down island.

http://www.bviplatinum.com/news.php?articleId=1355772237&ref=

All Chinese project and supplying their own fill, huh? Well, they have plenty of experience doing this kind of thing in the Spratly Islands. I predict a localized environmental disaster not only from the toxic crap they will probably have in their fill but Trellis Bay will be forever altered and will silt up to where it is no longer a viable anchorage without a regular dredging operation (assuming one is still allowed to anchor there and that they would want to). I hope I am wrong.

George, seems like Delta and American have 4 flights a day from STT
Also seems like the ramp workers are all from one company not the airlines.

A 7000 foot runway design and build project is a small project for this $60B in annual revenue company that builds ports, terminals, roads, bridges, railway, tunnel, civil work design and construction, capital dredging and reclamation dredging, container crane, heavy marine machinery, large steel structure and road machinery manufacturing, and international project contracting... with over 100,000 employees.

[i]"China Communications Construction Company (CCCC)is the largest port construction and design company in China, the largest dredging company in China and the third largest in the world."

Seems like when they get the Beef Island project done, they could come over to Virgin Gorda and lengthen and pave the Virgin Gorda Airport. Should not cost very much!!
Virgin Gorda provides a lot of money to the BVI and does not get much back.
And then with the extra paving material they could pave the road to my villa.

Having been through the prolonged/arduous process (as a UK citizen, BVI resident) of obtaining a BVI work permit, will be interested to learn how Chinese workers will procure same...

True however SW really would only serve it from FLL. In addition they dislike international because the costs are so much higher and they can't quick turn the aircraft. The current international they are flying is almost all inherited from AirTran. In addition SW is the most heavily unionized airline in the US. The rampers just negotiated a new contract limiting outsourcing.

I would be very surprised if the BVI has any interest in Southwest. The primary goal is multiple flights each day between Miami and EIS, followed by direct flights from the NYC area, along with a runway certified for a wide spectrum of fully loaded private FAA 135 aircraft. The RFP/RFI's list G5's in specifically. The better travelers need the ability to get in and get out any day with little notice. Go the the airport and leave.

A flight from NY to Beef would be interesting. Priced right, that would probably be our first choice.

if we could get a direct from Texas (Houston, DFW) to Beef, the West Coast would be happy, happy, happy!

Don't understand why you believe the BVI would not be real happy to have Southwest, though I suspect George is correct in his doubts. SWA has hubs in Tampa and FLL and would be no less convenient than Miami. it would would add a lot of one stop service to the BVI from many areas that currently have two stop flights to EIS or one stop to STT and a ferry. If only served by one carrier, you can wager that the flights will not be reasonable compared to STT and SJU. If not full..the service won't last long. I question how much demand there will be for midweek flights.

I am still afraid there is a real posibility it will be a $150 mil Field of Dreams and Shoeless Joe is not going to show up.

The market is those that are less price sensitive. Starting with working business professionals. Lawyers, consultants, CPA's, auditors inside and outside representing a whole host of more sophisticated investors. The typical Southwest flyer is not the intended BVI customer. The key to success is not price. The key to success is a constituent daily airlift morning and night that allows demanding business and pleasure travelers to get on and off the island anytime they want. That means flights to MIA first and foremost, then flights to a major US Northeast HUB like JFK or Newark. The BVI may end up subsidizing those flights at the end of the day.

$100+/- million for the hospital, $80+ million for the Pier Park. The only possible way they could come even remotely close to $150 million for the airport is to keep every BVI contractor,vendor and politician away from the project. Doubt that is going to happen.

Sorry, but if you think an "elite" commercial service that is not price sensitive will fill planes and be a success you are suggesting indeed that you believe in "build it and they will come philosophy" as mentioned...and I agree with that poster that Shoeless Joe ain't showing up. There is a reason there are a load of seats in coach and only a few up front. You are
not going to fill airliners w first class pricing to a Caribbean destination. The net jet crowd will like the air strip and would also keep the elite service you mention from filling seats. I think you way over estimate the North American use of the off shore banking in the BVI. It is not as valuable to US companies/citizens as one saw in the recent dump of off shore documents stolen from the big law firm, almost none from US. Time will tell ..I wouldn't want to invest in the airport or a non price sensitive carrier . I suspect if comes to be there will be mostly PM landings just like STT to allow a carrier to aggregate (typed aggravate in auto correct..very accurate) passengers to the departure hub before taking off mid day and turning around quickly back to the states.
. I don't see night arrivals and early morning daily departures like STT in the cards. But time will tell. My fear is that taxes and fees will continue to skyrocket to pay for an albatross.

There are lots of issues with this expansion. I have not read anything about the rest of the infrastructure required to support large aircraft. I doubt the Ramps and taxiways will support the weight of 737 class aircraft. Currently most aircraft don't fuel there however large jets will have to fuel as they can't land with excess fuel for the return leg. 5000 gallons of fuel per flight would be a average. 10 flights a day would need 50,000 gallons barged in each day. You need extensive storage facilities for that fuel. Take a look at the tanks at STT next time you are there. The current price for Jet Fuel is 5.50 a gallon at EIS. Airlines are paying about 1.50 a gallon in the US right now. Even with the big discounts airlines get I suspect the price would still be 4 bucks a gallon. That's going to add a large premium to fares.
If this runway does get built I would expect departure taxes to rival the UK approaching 200 dollars per passenger on top of the fuel premium. You won't see any bargin airfares out of EIS.
G

Part of the deal to gain the investment to build Nail Bay was the new hospital, the runway extension, and more. The BVI is late on meeting those commitments of the past. Offshore banking is just one part and maybe a dying part. More important to the BVI future is the investing and finance of the resorts and boat operators of all sizes. Every bit of those industries are now contingent on outside investors. Those investors and their complex insurance underwriters of all types will require easy and ready access to the BVI especially from Miami. Auditors, security specialists, HR specialist, professionally consultancies will fill many of those seats as part of the requirements to finance the future sale, maintenance, and improvement of those valuable assets. The reliable airlift of professionals is now table stakes for the BVI and the BVI finances. While Southwest may works well for millions of private travelers on most days? The better employers will not allow their employees to use Southwest for a long list of reasons way to complex to type. The lack of interline agreements is one key part and the fact that once you have a Southwest ticket you are stuck with Southwest is another. The future of BVI property values and finance is reliable MIA flights each day on AA. An East Coast hub with another major corporate employee carrier would be a plus as well. Again the key to 21st Century success is ready access to show up at the airport and leave whenever you want or must. The same is true for an investor or underwriter who wants to send a representative to the BVI right now. Without that type of reliable access the investor money and high net worth travelers will stay away. NOTE: Across the Caribbean travel is dominated by East Coast and Northeast Coast travelers. The rest of the country heads to Mexico or stops at Florida. Maybe look at the airport like a fire department. Expensive but something the modern investor will not go forward without.

Sounds like STT will be my preferred mode of travel to get to the BVI. With the numbers I see, I don't see how the airport investment will ever be paid back. I understand that there are certain travelers where cost is no object. However it is my belief that the vast amount of travelers will be cost driven. I see that in almost all all the guests that come to the villa. Only one group came with their own yacht (Yacht was brought from the states by the crew for the guests to enjoy). This was one group out of hundreds.
It would be interesting to me to see how many guests of Little Dix came with their own plane to EIS. I would bet it is a small number.
I hope that with the airport expansion, flights from Miami are successful as I will be able to use that service. I do not think that the service will be successful if the costs are high. You cannot fill a plane with high end persons.

Interesting times for the BVI.

I do not believe for a second this was ever about "bargain airfares". The primary purpose is to allow the traveler to get on and off the island by commercial jet carrier whenever they want. One quote that those that know use is "2.5 hours to Miami in place of 12 hours today". For the busy executive that matters, to the employee and her travel office or high new worth traveler that does not feel well that matters. The BVI lacks the hotel rooms and always will to support the budget traveling masses. To the financiers who will rebundle and service a $500 million debt package for all the BVI infrastructure it will matter. If you want cheap airfare and bargain island travel look to Mexico and the DR. The future BVI travelers will fit the profile of the Nail Bay players, the Peter Island visitors, and the very high end Little Dix Bay when it reopens. Those visitors are not shopping airfare. They simply want to get in and out whenever they want to get in and out and they demand the same for their family and guests who come to visit the villa.

The design has not even begun. The concept is a design build where the winning turn key contractor will design and build at least the following:

i. Extension of existing Runway into the sea
ii. Passenger Terminal Expansion and upgrade
iii. Aircraft Ramp Expansion (G-5 aircraft, RJ’s; A-320; 737-800; other private jets)
iv. Sewage Treatment Plant and Fire Fighting system relocation
v. New FBO Facility
vi. Pleasure craft water access-excavated channel
vii. Inter-Island Ferry/Transport service upgrade/relocation
viii. Trellis Bay Welcome and Visitor Center (Transportation Intermodal Center)
1. Crafts and gift shop
2. Indigenous arts and craft manufacturing & museum
3. Live flora indigenous to Beef Island (lignum vitae stand of trees)
ix. Traffic Reorganization
x. Car-park upgrade

The way I read all that. The plan is an airport you can drive up to and leave along with a modern safe boat dock that will allow ferries and yacht tenders to reliably and safely bring passengers to the airport from the out islands by water.

Some very rough high finance numbers. If the BVI can bundle all the infrastructure and current debt into a single new $500 Million bundle that can easily be amortized into $25M per year or less. $25M in annual debt cost spread across 300,000 annual visitors is less than $100 per visitor. Not all visitor will pay the same. With better emergency health care, much more reliable easy ingress and egress, better water and sewer plus roads. The BVI high end traveler mix will grow. That will allow better finance options for the smaller operators who want to sell, grow, or simply improve.

Other than the jet noise and sacrifice of the current Trellis Bay this is really a finance and operations no brainier. For many in Trellis Bay life will improve as it changes. For those on boats who have crew who want to come late or leave early life will get much better.

Balderdash. . The nail bay Marina hotel and artificial reef was a flaky idea that fell of its own weight . It had nothing to do with flying investors or anyone else into the BVI from Miami.LOL. Scrub was a big project. It went broke, not because accountants couldn't get there on one hop out of Miami, too few guests wanting to spend a vacation on their rock. Expensive direct air service would not change that.

Since his organization is in the news right now take Trump Tower hotel in Chicago, it would well be argued that that one hotel would have more visitors and revenue than any new projects combined after an airport is developed. The amount of traffic from the headquarters in NYC to the Trump Hotel in Chicago for business reasons is miniscule.
Little Dix Bay was owned by Rosewood, you can wager that there was not anything even close to an official from Rosewood stateside headquarters physically going to Little Dix Bay for business reasons every week.
The reason I believe this keeps being pushed is the Owner of Oil Nut Bay development and back in the day George, fired former manager and promoter of the defunct and silly nail bay project, wanted access for private jets for guests. They wanted the government to underwrite the infrastructure allowing extremely wealthy guests convenience while the locals and more "common" tourists picked up the bill. Scheduled service had less to do with their plans. A friend working there to.d me about a Saudi who came to Oil Nut with boatloads of his own food and items and an entourage for a two week stay. Having private jet access to EIS would greatly increase these sorts of guests..same with those renting guana and Necker and Branson's stuff on Mosqito.
It's great if you can have others pay the infrastructure bill so your business thrives.

Haven't heard this topic in years. Are you the same poster under a different name that promoted this plan years ago on TTOL?

I don't believe there are enough of the high end travelers you mention to support large aircraft operations on the airline side. Flights would have to be heavily subsidized. Many in that class of traveler would arrive by private aircraft.
If the BVI government were serious about this and wanted to keep costs more reasonable there are several new aircraft types that could operate to the US off a 5000 foot runway. The Bombardier C100/300 or the reengined E195 would both work. The costs would be dramatically lower.
G

I agree with you Will. You and I both have villas on VG so understand what our guests are looking for and will pay for.
Don't know who Stormjib is but he seems to be a business type that has a vested interest in part of this deal. Stormjib, please identify your self.
Thanks

I am just a semi retired once major business traveler, global business manager, father, soon to be grandfather with decades of BVI and other global boat fun. Each day the kids get older and world more complex the more critical it is for myself and increasingly my guests to get in and out when each individual or their boss thinks they must get in or out. When you are spending $> than 1000 per day for fun airfare of 600 or 900 is truly not that big of factor for the travelers the BVI hopes to attract. Airlines operate at costs between 10 cents and 15 cents per seat per mile plus a long list of taxes and fees. The "bargains" many search for near or below those costs are empty excess capacity seats some deeper pocket business or high wealth player is paying for. The only way the BVI will ever see "cheap seats" is with extra capacity the airline discounts to get something for that ultimately is paid for by others or BVI government subsidy. To be clear there is known business science and the laws of physics that determine how much it cost to run each plane per hour and each pound of payload human or cargo on it. By the way the same is true with the charter boats. The "deals" are excess capacity that some enjoy at the expense of those funding the asset or paying the full rate during other periods. Do the math on what the parents or grandparents are paying to charter entire large boats and the new villas for 15 days for family gatherings. When you consider a house in the Hamptons or Jersey shore can easily cost $10M even $50M the renting of a nice boat or villa to invite your family and friends to come and go as they please for a couple of weeks or a month is relatively inexpensive even with $1,000 airfare. Little Dix Bay will want well more than $1,000 per night for the refurbished property. Those customers will demand to get in and out without any risk, delay, or hassle. The only solution to the BVI future is their own 21st Century runway or some incredible partnership with STT and a ferry dock right there at the airport with C&I done with zero hassle on the ferries running every hour to each of the BVI Islands. There seems to be no interest from St. Thomas on that partnership. STT is already a zoo and terrible end to vacation on some Saturday afternoons. So the BVI will go it alone. Sure some will keep using STT, just like some use Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport to get to DC. For those that time and hassle avoidance matters Reagan and Dulles are the answer.

"Many in that class of traveler would arrive by private aircraft."

You bet and the runway clearly has those 1% in mind. But those types also have friends, family, business associates who come and go before, during, and after their visit on commercial. Some of the group may come in with the principle on a private jet but in most cases some of the group will return early, come late, or go to a different direction on the globe by commercial. Pick your favorite very rich person with jet access. They are not traveling with everyone in the group on the way in and out for a list of reasons way to long to type. Others will not go anywhere and in some cases are not allowed by their employee contract to go anywhere where a FAA 135 air ambulance cannot come to pick them up. Again the modern reliable runway is table stakes for future BVI property values and local employment.

You sounds like some of the anti-GMO idiots who say that anyone pro-GMO is obviously a paid "Monsatan shill". People can disagree with you just because they disagree with you.

Why such a stretch to justify a runway? Can you name a single geezer employee that is forbidden to travel by an employee contract you describe? Of course you cannot. And how many seats on these daily multiple flights do you claim these phantom individuals forbidden to travel by employers take up?
There are a lot of people with health issues that do not travel out of the US for that reason. A very wealthy friend who got us started visiting the USVI sold his Villa on St. John because of heart problems and his wife's declining health. He in no way would make air evac a criteria..has it on STT..not worth the risk to him. It is in no way going to fill seats with health compromised elderly people.

Currently coach is about a grand into EIS from St. Louis . Listening to you and more importantly George C who knows the inner workings of the airline industry in the nasty now and now rather than the sweet bye and bye ..I suspect that price would be at least 1800 in COACH.. When arriving in STT there are several islanders, lots of tourists with accomodations on STT,l a huge % going to St. John and a smaller contingent going to the BVI to bareboat or a land stay. I have never seen a ferry too crowded to board.

When an airline lands in SJU, there are many islanders aboard, and a huge % of tourists going to various Caribbean destinations.

When a large jet would land at EIS that would be the destination of nearly every passenger. Which is the best business model to fill aircraft?
Would a family of 4 choose to pay 7200 $ airfare and arrive at west end for a charter at 5 pm after a 120$ taxi ride or arrive at 5 paying 2400$ airfare plus 200$ ferry trip?

Your claim of "walk up and fly" also shows a lack of understanding of economics. In yesteryear, I rode on many flights where I had not rows but "sections" of an aircraft to myself. Indeed often would move passengers on a huge aircraft to properly distribute the weight. Those airlines all went bankrupt, cut fares to be competitive with SWA at the time a low price carrier..not so much these days. They went broke for various reasons but not flying with seats full topped the list. You don't see much of that these days. The reorganized airlines cut seats..the Arizona desert was full of them. They are now profitable because for the most part they are competitive on routes and fill planes with coach passengers. Your claim that they will go back to a previous business model and fly with a few well heeled passengers, accountants and financing consultants and corporate types who are forbidden to travel as you describe that don't exist is ludicrous.
For a healthy BVI tourism ..underwriting ferries and cape air would be a lot more beneficial. From our small city service on Cape Air is 50$ each way to St. Louis 120 miles. It's subsidized . Imagine the effects of a similar service from SJU to EIS and VJI .. It would likely be far cheaper and net revenue gain than this albatross .

If you can just "walk up and fly"

Fascinating opinions. Mine counts for little but is more of an observation. BVI is a tiny place. That really is its charm. There is little infrastructure...never know what you will find in the stores. Close by is a US territory with much more infrastructure and access and consistently lower prices. I can't imagine mass tourism being viable; if so it would be self defeating. The really rich... They will get there as they do already. Again, part of the charm. Lots of flights from SJU ( probably would be more if there was demand). New hospital... That won't figure in.. Not why people come.

This seems driven by other agendas.. I will likely happen but by then who knows what the BVI will look like.

Somehow I do not see the BVI becoming the Dubai of the Caribbean.

Should it happen, it will not be in my lifetime.

I do not see any plan or path to mass tourism. In fact the opposite may come into play. Fewer visitor than the 300,000 overnite today spread over more months of the year at greater spend per night is economically possible. No one should fault the belongers for an attempt at a higher quality of life and the equivalent of their own middle class in the future. On those small BVI islands that is only possible with a greater hospitality spend per person per night. Secret banking is not the sustainable long term path to nirvana. For those that crave bargain airfares. There is no free lunch in the mature and highly sophisticated airline industry. Cheap fares are always the discounting, even giving away, of excess seat capacity. That happens during non peak times and when planes are being re-positioned to capture those passengers willing to pay a premium. Every cheap fare must be offset by someone paying a premium at another time or on another route. Southwest today runs their airline on +/- 15 cents per mile per passenger plus any fees and taxes each time a plane lands and takes off. That incremental stop landing and taking off at SJU really adds to the cost of the trip. For those traveling less than 2,000 miles the air cost should be +/-$300 each way plus fees and taxes. Anytime your ticket cost is less that 15 cents per mile someone else is paying part of your tab somewhere.

There are many senior executives and those with large life insurance policies who cannot fly on single engine aircraft. There others with a lot to live for who simply will not fly on single engine aircraft. There are still more who will not bring their healthy friends and family anyplace without a full service hospital and any location where AMEX cannot dispatch a FAA 135 air ambulance to take them back home when they do not feel well or get hurt. For two decades or more my AMEX benefits allow anyone I purchased the inbound ticket using the AMEX to be returned home via air ambulance should they become ill or injured on the trip.

Mass cheap travel... look to Mexico, the DR, Caymans, the BVI will never be able to play in that game and I see no hint they want to. I do see a clear attempt to higher quality properties are far more per night. The same will come into play for boats and when you look at the new large multi hulls is really already here. The bar tabs at Pirates may be another example. During my first trips in the early 80's we spent less than 1,000 per person per week including airfare. Our trips today start at $25K and go up.

Those planes in the desert are there because they cost too much per hour to operate compared to newer designs and in some cases simply make too much noise to land and takeoff many places.

Again regular reliable jet access into and out of the BVI each day direct to US hubs is the key to long term property values in the BVI.

You are spot on there. Dubai is planning an airport expansion to allow 120 million passengers per year in the near term and 220 million passengers over the very long term.

The BVI today operates with +/-300,000 overnight visitors each year spending just over $400M total in the islands for an average local overnite visitor spend of +/-$1,400. The key to BVI success is the same or fewer visitors spending more money in the islands each day they are here. Each villa bed or hotel room should be on a path to rent for more each night. Each bar and eatery on a path to sell the same or fewer drinks for more revenue. None of that is sustainable without cutting the hassles to get on and off the islands. For those that think I am crazy. Please note there are now many bareboats in the BVI with rates north of $20,000 per week and those boats are the first to book. The multi season high end travelers of Aspen might be a better comparison for the BVI's future than Dubai. Kauai could also be a slightly larger comparison with just over 1 million visitor each each. Kauai is in the process of extending it 6500 foot runway +/-1,000 feet further out into the Pacific Ocean.

In order to create this high-end Shangri-La you speak so knowingly of, you would first of all have to radically decrease the cruise ship presence in the BVI, as no one spending more than the already overheated prices in the BVI would want to share the beach with the day-tripping hoards. And yet, paradoxically, the BVI isn't going in that direction. No, the "other agendas" argument seems to hold more water.

And how can you compare an island with the size, density, economy, politics and geography of Kauai with the BVI? You have a developed, American, subsidized, physically remote island, pretty much the opposite of the BVI.

And how does a "semi-retired...global...fan of boat fun" know so much more about the BVI tourist and the BVI tourism product than actual operators and owners of BVI tourism assets?

Curious and curiouser.

Well.. I think you are crazy. Let's take Moorings as an example. 200 boats. About 12 (I think) of them are their 58 foot cats - Upwards of $25-30k fully crewed. That's a small percentage. And we're not talking a single family taking out a boat that size. We're talking at least 5 cabins - that's $5-6k a cabin. $5-6k for an all-inclusive is on the high side, but not crazy. The bigger question is how many of those people return regularly? Multiple times a year?

Much more popular are the boats where you might be looking at $2-3k a cabin or less. And this seems to be the group that returns frequently.

Raise the hotel rates, raise the food and drink prices and at best places might make the same they make now, because I'm sure fewer people would be spending. Regardless of what happens with prices, we'll still spend the same amount at restaurants and bars. Prices rise, we'll just east/drink out less to keep our budget where it is.

I'm still not sure how getting to the BVI is a hassle... especially if you think money is the driving factor.. Just fly to San Juan and take a Cape Air flight or if you prefer a larger plane, Seaborne. Or charter a private flight. Or fly into St. Thomas and you can even do the same or a helicopter flight to Tortola, not to mention the ferry.

Only hassle that would be eliminated with a direct flight from Miami would be for the person starting in Miami as they have a single flight. For everyone else, you'd still be switching planes.

The BVI government should look south in the island chain at Grenada to see what the Chinese did there. Just to name one: the Stadium debacle. Now the Chinese are trying to build a new resort in Mt. Hartman's bay.

Armed guards are necessary to protect the Chinese from the locals because the locals are so upset at what the Chinese did with the Stadium. Bring the topic up to any Grenadian and you will get the true story.

The same mess will occur in the BVI's if they are involved in any projects there. Just beware who your bedfellows are

I did a Goggle search for the Grenada Stadium and all I find is praise for the stadium which apparently was a gift from China. What is the problem with the stadium?

It would be interesting to see what impact the new longer runway has had for St. Vincent. Their old runway was as long as BVI. Might be too soon to tell.

Some of the problems with the Grenada Stadium were:
1. No Grenadian workers were permitted to work at the site
2. Payments to politicians by the Chinese were very large to give them a foothold in Grenada
3. The stadium is already falling into disrepair due to poor workmanship

Google tends to report what the governments and press want you to see, as is the case for Grenada

The 9,000 foot runway at a completely new airport on St. Vincent is not landing any planes yet.

"More precise date for St Vincent airport opening to be given at the end of April"....

It is May last I checked...

When operational a 9,000 foot runway could be a real game changer for that region of islands. St. Vincent will have to overcome at least the perception there is a crime problem there. We have sailed St. Vincent and The Grenadines with no issue. We only toured explored the interior of St. Vincent once. We tend to avoid large islands and spend as little time as possible on Tortola during our BVI visits. Almost two decades ago we were touring/exploring a Banana plantation on St. Vincent with a private local man. We came down a path to find a building clearly marked... Chinese Agricultural Extension Service. I was a little stunned. What interest would the Chinese have so far from home?

What all the island leaders have figured out along with most US local leaders is if you do not have at least 7,000 feet of runway you cannot play in the game of business or tourism anymore.

If you enjoy sailing and sailing between islands I encourage everyone to do at least one trip to the St. Vincent area. Young Island Resort is a great place to start and end your trip. Until the new airport has real flights the connections through Barbados can be troublesome. If you are willing to sail overnight you can fly direct to St. Lucia and start there.

Really folks, this airport expansion is hardly about tourism "in general" but for a very small,select group who have their own aircraft. Always was.
Gov't invested some $$ in a local airline operation that. will probably run a few weekly flights from EIS to MIA.
I highly doubt you could fill an aircraft more than once a week out of the New York area, and I doubt we will be seeing the mainline operators getting involved. The supporting infrastructure isn't there and the killer will be the fuel costs and ground services.

Take a deeper look some of the 'Shangri-La" is in progress. Completely tour Scrub, completely tour Peter Island, completely tour Nail Bay, review in detail the plans underway at Little Dix. The BVI is most certainly moving more upscale in a number of ways. It is not just the moorings with higher end boats almost floating condos. The Catamaran Company, Voyage, and even TMM have much higher $quality$ boats in their fleets.

I am not business fan of the cruise ships. The cruise ships offer the local market 50-100 bucks per passenger on the days they show up. The contracts are always short and in the cruise operators favor. From Mobile, Alabama to Grenada local governments have been out negotiated with the cruise ships who can take their built in infrastructure and go someplace else if the local government will not give them the deal that want. At the end of each cycle each location must bid for the business they think they already have.

If the BVI can get the proper airlift working and clientele to fuel better shops and dining? Those cruise ship piers could always be filled with mega yachts swapping crews and guests. Also keep in mind the cruise masses only his a few spots on some of the islands. You will not see them near Peter Island or Nail Bay.

The deep pocket hospitality operators and professionals are the ones pushing for and demanding the runway. David Johnson of Nail Bay was very clear and very public the conditions of his deal to invest in Nail Bay was the BVI was to build a new hospital, to extend the existing runway to enable direct flight access from cities like Miami and New York. The BVI was just as clear and just as public the runway will be extended somehow. Other resort professionals are just as specific on the airport requirement just not as public with the demand.

As long as other business revenue is created to replace the massive cruise ship daytrippers the ships can go away in one season or at least be replaced by smaller more elegant cruise ships and their better class of passengers. The BVI needs better shopping and eatery options along the lines of St. Barts to pull the better boutique cruise options into the docks. My vote would be the very large mega private yachts at those docks between family visits or charters. St. Martin is long out of space for that business. What is missing? Easy direct jet service from the US or what the industry leaders are calling 2.5 hour service from MIA. Flight time from JFK to St. Lucia today is 4.5 hours and soon St. Vincent will have the same option.

I tend to agree that the runway extension is geared to private aircraft however a 5000 runway would accommodate almost all private jets. There is no need to extend it to 7000 which is a order of magnitude harder. The Gulfstream G650 which is what any billionaire with a shred of self respect demands can make it from the BVI to anywhere in the US and Europe off 5000 feet. With 5850 feet it can go 7000 miles unrefueled!
G
G

If the effort was simply to appease the private jet crowd the BVI leadership would not be handing over $7M to subsidize these albatrosses in the interim until the runway can be completed. There is much more to the passion on the subject than a handful of private jet visitors.

You are obviously the same promoter of this nonsense 4-5 years ago under a different handle Storm Jib. You were promoting at that time George's mega resort, artificial reef at nail bay and the debacle of extending BeefIsland airport .. I notice you are singularly bringing up the long gone Nail bay adventure...way gone..a BVI real estate company is renting the nail bay units and George, the promoter of the deal only you have mentioned is ..long gone . Why do you bring up that long dead project and why do you espouse the same air connection you so vociferously did under a different screen name a few years ago? Are you Mr George? Why not clue us in to your interest ?

One thing disturbs me (among others) is that there have been 3 very expensive market studies done on the airport expansion and to date NONE have been released to the public.

Just give us decent ferry service and I will be happy!!
G

Amen...all the vast majority of travelers to BVI need.

Yeah ... what Will said!

I am amazed at the vitriolic and personal nature of some of the posts in this thread. Discussing the airport expansion is, of course, anyone's right, but will serve absolutely no purpose. The government is going to do what they are going to do. Nobody can stop them as they have a decided mandate from the voters and an impotent opposition.

According to government pundits, the airport expansion [color:"red"]is going to happen[/color], regardless of who among us is for or against it.

If I were going to make a prediction regarding the value and likely success of this very expensive project, I would have to say that I would join Will, George, Glenn and others on the naysayers side of the argument.

I don't believe the airport expansion will fix the woes regarding affordable or easy access to the BVI. Time always underlines truths and reveals facts. As frustrating as it may be for those of us who firmly believe this is a huge mistake, beating anyone else over the head with my opinion is more than a little egotistical. I am not going to change my mind and it is clear where Mr. or Ms. Stormjib stands. The main difference between us (aside from being diametrically opposed on this topic) is that I am not afraid to use my real name and stand behind my opinions ... publicly.

Doesn't seem to be working so great for Scrub. I have yet to see a crowd there. Was pretty dead while we were there last week.

Boats are different. You can put a lot of people on them and when split among them the nightly cost is reasonable given that it is not only your lodging, but also serves as your excursions.

May be a little off topic but was wondering how many of those tourist/visitor days (300,000? - seemed like a lot) were cruise ship vs on yachts vs land based. I would have thought the yachts would make up a large portion on the non- cruise ship crowd. Thanks.

You are 100% right. Same arguments, same condescending pedantic tone.

No idea on the ratio of boat sleepers to shore sleepers. The cruise ship passengers are not considered overnight, nor the folks who run over from the USVI for the day. Here is the data by month on the numbers of overnight visitors in hotel rooms, villas, and boats.

BVI Visitors by Month

Wow,

After reading several of your posts, I was hoping you weren't who I thought you might be. I am now about 99% certain of your identity and I can only say I am really surprised and more than a little disappointed. I have always given you more credit.

You tipped your hand with this last response. Wow.

Actually the BVI had been averaging 380,000 overnight visitors with another 80,000 or so non-cruise day viitors. Of that 380,000, about 75% arrived via STT and the ferries. Cruise ship visits totaled a bit over 500,000 in 2014, the latest stats I can find. That will probably increase by 60 to 70% over the next few years.

BTW, including Little Dix, Peter, Byras Creek and Scrub there are less than 300 guest rooms with rack rates above $400/night.

By far the most cost effective solution to the access problem would be a modern reliable fast ferry system.

Couldn't agree more Glenn.

The addition of some modern hydrofoils (from Puerto Rico, St. Maarten or St. Thomas) would also kick things up a notch or 10 and add a certain bit of fun and excitement to travel between the islands.

There is more historical data and some professional opinion in this executive summary:

http://www.alvarezandmarsal.com/sites/default/files/ghn-market_report-bvi-03-10-15.pdf

This snip should help further understand where the plan is trying to take the BVI....

"the Rosewood Little Dix Bay is the only property that caters
to the luxury guest, a segment of the market that is currently underserved in the Territory, particularly when considering that this type of customer is less rate sensitive and more destination/service driven in their selection of accommodation."

The plan is clearly a similar or fewer number of visitors moving to a spend of closer to $2000 per day as compared to $200 per day. The DR and Cuba along with others will own the bottom budget mass travel end. The BVI will focus on the other spectrum.

That would be wonderful if it were possible. The reality is each of those governments have no interest in working together. The sea conditions between those islands can also be enormous. Not sure if the airlines have any interest or will to coordinate with marine transportation? There are examples elsewhere where you can check your bag and travel by rail to the airport seamlessly.

The BVI plan to success would need to start at baggage claim in STT with a greeting and escort/transport to a ferry dock on the STT property. Last I heard the STT taxi lobby and St. Thomas government wanted none of that.

One major obstacle that no one seems willing to try and overcome is the existing ferry operators low standard operational style and none hospitality enterprise culture that will never make this successful for the 21st Century traveler the BVI hopes to attack and retain. This board is filled with customer disappointment with the ferries, taxis, water taxis, credit cards, wet bags..... One would think if you do not have Kevin you are doomed. That is not going to scale or ever fly with Mrs. Got Rocks or her friends and daughters.

There is a reason why Little Dix has placed greeters in at STT baggage claim with a hassle free experience to the resort.

So the ferries hang on as the cheap bus service for the locals that some travelers will always make use of. Sort of the BVI equivalent of riding on top of the freight train. The BVI leadership will step up and build their own runway to take direct control of the BVI destiny and visitor experience. All in the modernization of the BVI health, sanitary, and transportation investment will result in +/-$500 million in bundled long term debt. That can easily be covered with +/-$25 Million a year or $50-$100 per visitor. All very doable. The only real questions are the completion dates, what other costs or agenda will get crammed in there, and what if any cost the BVI will have to subsidize AA and/or JetBlue to fly to EIS daily with at least one MIA and one Northeast cost flight each day. 600 air passengers each way each day is very attainable. I suspect there will be additional options with some planes stopping in SJU and boarding connecting passengers. What many leave out is the belongers and expats traveling off the island along with the airfreight that no modern economy can live without. Trelis Bay will be changed forever. The reality is Trelis Bay was changed long ago. The political mouthpiece and public driver for all this is Dr. the Honourable Kedrick D. Pickering. A US educated board certified surgeon born and raise in Trelis Bay. It is time to stop all the noise and get on with the work to finish the air transportation solution and jobs for the next generation. Pickering got that long ago and the all the talking brings us to only one option. Extend the existing runway into the sea to meet the 21st Century standards set by others off the islands.

This report does not take into account the large amount of luxury vacation villas that have been built that many travelers to Virgin Gorda enjoy. These villas house many more travelers than Little Dix.

Amen!

And as I said earlier in the thread "You sounds like some of the anti-GMO idiots who say that anyone pro-GMO is obviously a paid "Monsatan shill". People can disagree with you just because they disagree with you.

One guy says "Don't know who Stormjib is but he seems to be a business type that has a vested interest in part of this deal. Stormjib, please identify your self."

Another guy says "Are you Mr George? Why not clue us in to your interest ?"

StormJib is not Ajit George. He is a guy with a different opinion than you. Or maybe he's just explaining the government's reasoning, such as they think they are reasoning. But I can tell you one thing, he is a property owner and full-time resident of the BVI for at least 16 years, and as such, it could certainly be argued that he has more right to an opinion about the BVI than what is mostly a bunch of tourists.

Personally, I think the airport expansion is a mistake being driven by the larger properties and certain outside investors. And I agree that a real ferry is an excellent solution. But having lived in Tortola for almost 19 years, StormJib is unfortunately probably correct in his assessment of the ferry situation - too much politics with the ferry companies themselves, and the two governments.

But there is no reason to be so rude to someone who disagrees with you. Play nice.

I find it interesting that you so easily dismiss the mode of transportation by which more than three quarters of the overnight visitors arive. True the ferry system is delapidated and poorly run but that is exactly my point! Even if the Beef Island expansion is wildly successful beyond even the most optimistic projections the ferry service will still carry half the overnight visitors. For many many reasons travel via STT will always have a price, schedule and total travel time advantage over EIS.

It is also mistifying to me that you seem to distain the middle and upper-middle class market that makes up the meat and potatoes of Caribbean tourism.

While I agree about a modern, efficient, well-run ferry system vs an improved, jet-capable EIS, I don't recall those Russian hydrofoils exactly working out in the late 90s! And I think that the potential seas would make for some pretty crappy and/or canceled trips between San Juan and the BVI or the BVI and Sint Maarten in the winter months.

Anyone know anything about commercial hovercraft?

Let's put a positive spin on this..we may get a really good Chinese restaurant on Tortola to keep those workers and execs happy!

It is very easy to dismiss the venture but I do think it could open up new lines of business and solve some current issues - on top of the private jet business. There are a large number of people living and working in the BVI who travel regularly for business, regardless of cost. They would continue to do so but now be able to save countless wasted hours in airport terminals. This would increase with easy access.

Also, there are no options for weekend travel (northwards)from/to the BVI other than Puerto Rico. This could potnetially open up that market. For a lot of people in the BVI, time is shorter than money. Travelling via SJU or STT is a huge time waster.

If you examine the trend in both bareboating and crewed yachts, there has been a constant trend upwards in the customer base involving amenities and toys. I am basing this on observations of the industry since the first time I chartered (1971) until the last time I worked as a charter captain in 2014.

I know less about vacation villas in the BVI, but having been in a fair number, I would say that this holds true for land based in the BVI, as well.

Years ago, someone in a BVI charter clearinghouse told me, "The money is made in the high-end boats." And indirectly implied that they eventually would only be rep'ing high-end boats.

Have you been to Pearl of the Orient?

I can't believe this is still going on. It's rather obvious that at least one person in this argument is a retread and he is trolling everybody the exact same way he did a year or two ago. The arguments are identical.

Stop feeding the trolls.

Many good points today. Time can be more important than money for at least some. The Villas and Boats keep getting larger and "higher end". New Markets. In today's world where many can work remote much of the time; there is a market for renters of a month or more. One option many renters of any length need is the ability to easily and reliably travel in and out mid trip at times to make critical meetings, deal with a crisis that suddenly appears, or simply a boss that suddenly demands ones presence. Those higher end, less price sensitive, need for flexibility travelers are bypassing the BVI today. A couple of EIS flights to US hubs a day fixes that. It also opens the doors to the person with a jet card for as little as 25 hours a year in their pocket to call a plane to come get them. Those FAA 135 aircraft that many employers use know cannot land at EIS today.

I use Aspen as a comparison again. Aspen has 200,000 air passengers a year and flight daily during the winter season with Delta, United, and more. Even with good mainline and discount carriers some still drive the 4 hours over the continental pass in and out of Aspen. Some to save a few dollars along with a long list of other personal reason. Certainly the ferry option will be here for a long time if not forever. What the ferries will look like and operate like will be a joint regulatory and subsidiarity effort between the governments of the BVI, USVI, and the likes of the US Coast Guard. American Eagle and the ATR's made the BVI what it is today. Real US Jet service will retain what the BVI has and improve the economy with the same or fewer visitors than the environment struggles to sustain today.

If I had a magic wand their would be a free clean ferry meeting passengers at STT with their bags checked through to their last dock in the BVI. Those boats would leave at leave and return at least every hour each day from 2 hours before the first flight and continue until 2 hours after the last flight. I would provide Little Dix like service using contractors for everyone with an airline ticket and reservation in the BVI. C&I would be painless near invisible for those arriving by air whether the plane landed at STT or EIS. Denmark is my favorite example there. Land in Denmark and there is clearly security. Unless you truly do not look like you belong there or a dog signals an issue no one slows the visitors down from the gate, to baggage claim, to the taxi.

My best crystal ball guess if the ferries ever improve it will only be once US Mainland Air-service is functional daily and directly between EIS and US Hubs.

Much of the land is occupied, the anchorages are full even overcrowded. The secret private banking business is at risk. The only way to improve, (maybe to just keep what they have), the standard of living for the BVI belongers for the next generation is to increase the amount spent by each visitor each day they are in the BVI. I do not think there is any disdain... well except for some of the cruise hordes. Reality is the BVI must set and path and is setting path to higher end, even much higher end visitors whether they like it or not. Little Dix just closed for 2 years to make the place higher end. Any idea what the renovation budget is for those 100 total rooms?

THIS is where the motivation for the runway extension is!

I have said it several times before, and recent events support this more than ever. This is a good read: http://globalnews.ca/news/2628502/what-d...-panama-papers. Excerpt:
"More than half the 200,000 offshore companies set up by the Mossack Fonseca law firm, including ones owned by the father of British Prime Minister David Cameron and relatives of Chinese leader Xi Jinping, were registered in the BVI, according to reports co-ordinated by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists"

We are all deluding ourselves when we think the lengthening of the runway is about flying in 737s from the US. As George explains very clearly, just refueling a regular medium-haul air service would be very hard. And building a runway over a lagoon that lands 737s, for a population of 30,000 residents and a few cost-conscious tourists? Ludicrous! In particular, with STT right next door. Not gonna happen.

We are also deluding ourselves if we think we play an important role in the economy of the BVI. Sorry I have to break it to you, this is all window dressing. Yes, there are a bunch of people earning their living by cleaning villas and fixing charter boats but that is chump change compared to the REAL money that is being made.

You can read where the money in the BVI comes from in the Panama papers.

This whole airport story has absolutely nothing to do with tourism. Tourists can fly conveniently to STT or SJU or SXM and take a short flight or ferry. But the important people (for the BVI government) cannot do that because the last thing they want to do is to go through a first-world immigration line, with their suitcases subject to search by first world customs.

What these people need is to fly their private jets _directly_ from South America or the Middle East and not be bothered to show their face, passport or briefcase to US or EU officials. The length of the current runway allows them to land but not to take off.

THAT is the problem for the BVI government, not whether you do or don't like taking the ferry from STT.

Their planes don't need gazillions of gallons to refuel (and they couldn't care less about the gas price), and they don't need a runway that can withstand regular landings by commerical jets. Just give them a place to fly directly in and out, and to head straight to their shell company offices.

I am afraid you are wrong there. About 35% of the BVI GDP is from the financial sector but 199,900 of those 200,000 companies are nothing more than a file folder in some filing cabinet on De Castro St. The money is in Lichdenstein or Nevada or Delaware. 99.9% of the principles have never laid eyes on the BVI. There are few reason for any "corporate executive" to come to the BVI to conduct business. The entire corporate records of 99% of those companies can be scanned and emailed anywhere in the world in less than an hour. The occasional Russian oligarch or Arab potentate may fly in to meet his yacht but the only auditors who might fly in will be government regulators tracing down tax scofflaws and they are definitely not high end travelers.

For the record when I speak of "auditors" and professional consultancies. I am referring the the third party independent certified talent you need to run and finance the likes of The Moorings, Little Dix, BEYC, sell and close on $X Million Villas, the loan that went bad on Scrub was $100 Million. 21st Century business and modern real world banking and public markets demand all kinds of outside and inside certified professional oversight. The $500 Million bond offerings to deal with the BVI government debt will need a bunch of those people to.

The entire 35% of the BVI GDP from the financial sector is at risk. That business can all leave via email at the speed of light. Tourism is the only sustainable economy the BVI has.

I took a close look at the proposed runway and the terrain around the airport. It's a operational nightmare for airline ops with larger aircraft. I am not completely sure it's even feasible. ILS approaches require 6 miles of straight away. Not possible at EIS. A GPS approach could be used however generally you want a 3 mile straight segment. That can be reduced to 1.5 miles but that still puts large jets turning final over fat hogs bay. With a short final the airport will be classed as special and require additional crew training and currency obligations upping costs.
For less then 10 cents on the dollar the BVI could set up a modern ferry system and set up reliable large turboprop service to connect in SJU. Maybe common sense will prevail.
G

Now George, they could knock about 300' off the top of Quick Hill aand another 150' off of Kingston Hill and use the rock to fill in Trellis Bay. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Wink.gif" alt="" />

"Maybe common sense will prevail." Wouldn't THAT be a miracle <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Yikes.gif" alt="" /> Unfortunately, with common sense, you can't skim some here and there and everywhere and line your pocket.

I am amused by this claim that the BVI should let the riff raff go to Mexico, DR or Cuba and gear up very expensive air service to cater to the high rollers. Claims that because charter yachts are getting bigger and more expensive and that Villas are more expensive with more amenities (don't necessarily find that true, much less change in rental villas than yachts) is somehow causing a proponent of this boondoggle to claim that these high rollers won't worry about the price.

These people seem to mistake these often hard working couples saving and or borrowing for a week's vacation in the BVI, for a few Owners of the two hundred ft mega yachts and Island Owners. They have nothing in common other than destination. However the former make up the bulk of BVI travelers.

This silly premise misses the mark badly for the average and the majority of the visitors to the BVI

Well let's take two families each with two kids who are renting a Villa above Smuggler's cove. They are sharing the 4 bedroom accommodations that lets say rent for 5,000 in June . So each couple is spending $2,500 for their share of the week's accommodations.

Or let's say the same two couples are chartering a 4 cabin cat for a week at a price of 10 grand, each couple's share, 5,000.

Btw many of the cats are split 4 ways so claiming because the boats grew larger and better equipped, in no way means that in most cases you have candidates for the old Robin Leach series badly misunderstands the case.

In addition the majority of these villa rentals and yacht charters are for one week. many people plan a whole year or a two years or more to make the trip. Some save for it, some max credit cards and I'm sure some have hit home equity lines to have that BVI vacation.

Now let's say this typical family from a Midwest city I'm familiar with can get tickets lately for about 600$ to STT with one connection thru Atlanta or Miami and arrive at 130 or 230 pm. 200$ + 50 for taxi gets them to west end. 2650 for the 4

If they take Jib's High Roller Express, they will have the same one connection in the states, may arrive at similar time or I suspect later because with everyone on the plane only going to the BVI an airline will wait till all feeder arrivals possible to try to load it. So currently it is about 900-1200 from the same Midwest city to EIS. With this High Roller xpress let's say it's 1800$. That family of four would be out about 7200 air fare plus probably 150$ taxi to west end.

So you are looking at the travel cost being about $ 3,700 higher for that family of four.

That difference in cost amounts to 1.5 times what they paid for their accommodations. It would be 3/4 of what they spent on their share of the charter boat.

I've have heard many more complaints about cost to get to the BVI since American dropped the props than I have inconvenience.

The BVI would be much smarter to spend their money on better ferry service and find those 30 or 40 seat prop planes and subsidize flights between SJU and EIS.

lLiane I'm guessing can tell you that not everyone chartering a yacht, even new and fancy, is unconcerned about cost of travel to the BVI. I know for darn sure that is true of many land based guests. People are like sheep. You can shear them many times but only eat them once. The High Roller Express will not appeal to the vast majority of travelers to the BVI because of cost.

And with that I will wait till another year and another change of his screen name to shoot holes in this plan.

I agree Will. Look at any busy anchorage. The majority of boats would all be $10k or less for a week - many of them far less then that.

The only change I've seen in the 5-6 years we've been doing this is that Moorings has about a dozen crewed 58' cats. It seems that market has increased. They used to only have one or two large crewed cats like that. But even that has 5 cabins so it can be split.

I really don't see that changing much and I'd wager those doing the larger crewed boats (50' and up) aren't visiting multiple times a year like the rest of us.

For us, I really don't see going through San Juan as an inconvenience at all. St Thomas actually would be since it would mean two flights and a ferry. SJU is just 1 flight, plus another flight to Tortola. Cost is close enough to justify the shorter travel time.

If the BVI really is interested in gaining more visitors - I think advertising is a much bigger need. I think many people just aren't aware of the BVI. I talk to people all the time and I'm surprised how many aren't familiar with it at all. St. Thomas for sure and St. John in most cases as well.. but BVI - Tortola, Virgin Gorda.. typically not. At best some have heard of Tortola, but no other islands in the BVI.

"If the BVI really is interested in gaining more visitors" That is not what the BVI leadership is play for. The powers that be are playing for a similar or even less visitors spending more per day.

No one is saying you cannot keep taking the ferries they are not going anywhere or at least the services are not. Too many locals(voters) depend on them. You can also swim, row, or sail your own boat or charter boat here.

The economic or ATR's or turboprops do not add up anymore. The fuel cost too much and the planes do not seat enough passengers to pay for the maintenance and crew. That is why American stopped flying them. We will also see the 50 seat regional jets go away across all the US networks.

To be clear no one is telling anyone who loves the BVI to head somewhere else. The business reality is the BVI will never be able to compete on price with the likes of the DR, Caymans, a host of others building out for those markets, and Cuba when it ever comes online for the North American market. The BVI is in a position where revenues must be raised and at some point the financial industry revenues replaced. There is simply nothing sustainable with hidden secret bank accounts and shell corporations in the worlds future.

Watch the taxes, fees, and other government charges go up shortly. That will only go so far. The viable option is a boutique tourism market more focused on travelers who are not price focused. Easy jet service is a key table stake there. Financing all those assets will also require business like jet services for the support staff that goes along with complex high finance. One other item... Counting on anything in the near future from or in Puerto Rico for you business is akin to playing Russian roulette. PR is in for a world of hurt and change. Maybe when they hit rock bottom a new hospitality and charter market will open up in that direction. STT is a disaster on Saturday and other times so even with perfect ferries that place does not meet all the requirements. The people who study all the problems and are focused on the plans for the future look at all of that. The fix to take control of the BVI destiny no matter how expensive is a proper runway and airport.

[quote]StormJib said:

"Watch the taxes, fees, and other government charges go up shortly. That will only go so far. "

Yep..and after the government p's away 100 mil plus on this runway and is either shut down by safety concerns like Virgin Gorda was or after a crash ..or as is likely there is no way to fill planes at inflated pricing on a daily basis and you have weekly service on a 100 mil plus investment. ..
Then they will too squeeze more blood out of the turnips just like my great state of Illinois, that thought spending now and paying later was a brilliant strategy. Always easy to build "stuff" with borrowed money or OPM. Other people's money. It may well make he BVI the next Puerto Rico in fiscal terms.

American did not stop flying the ATR's they moved them to the mainland. The new generation of large turboprops are very efficient, far more then jets. They could also go in and out of EIS without the need to fuel getting cheap gas in SJU.

Storm Jib is the former PA_Ron, who I think was kicked off of here. casailor always feels the need to defend him for whatever reason, saying Ron is a full-time BVI resident. Yet, Ron has been posting from Pennsylvania for as long as I can remember. So, he must have some long arms for being a "full time BVI resident" for the past 16 years and posting from Pennsylvania. As I said before, if you feel the need to defend "Storm Jib" and all his worldy experiences, have him post his experience and not a bunch of cut & paste garbage.

All the American ATR's are now gone from US passenger service. The ATR's cost to much to fly per seat mile and hour to make any money in a competitive market. Our US airlines not longer want any small planes. They are simply not profitable in a structure where you must run the plane on 9 cents a seat mile hoping to get 15 cents a seat mile from the passengers. Each time you go up and each time you go down money is spent. The same with each time you stop at an airport. The 3 hop to get the BVI is also economically unsustainable. There are 2 ATR's that remain with Cape Air flying the Guam, Rota and Saipan routes where there is no competition and swimming is just not possible. Most were simply handed back to the banks. FedEx does have 20-30 flying cargo. There are simply not enough seats to sell on the smaller planes to cover the cost of capital, the pilots and crew, service, and fuel. The small regional jets seating 50 will be the next to go. The slower prop planes get hit twice. Small number of seats and the slower speeds reduce the number of legs they can fly each day or period. Anyplace their is competition or passengers concerned with price the small plane jet or prop are toast. The result just like EIS lost service many others have lost airline service and another 20-30 are on the block to be cut soon. Either you have regular airline jet service or none at all. With well over 300,000 overnight visitors the BVI can more than support jet service coupled with the fact that the 30,000 residents are not going to drive anywhere off island.

Unfortunately, what you and I consider common sense, is perceived as pedantic and unreasonable to those on the other side of the argument. They are certainly entitled to their opinion, but so are the rest of us.

I am firmly set in my view that the airport expansion is not only a terrible idea, but it is one that could potentially sink the BVI financially. I envision a future not dissimilar to that currently being experienced by Greece, Venezuela, Puerto Rico and several others. The difference between the BVI and those countries is that other nations actually care what happens to them because their financial well-being directly impacts others. That is not the case with the BVI. If the BVI goes into a tailspin, the world will move on with barely a footnote in their local papers.

Since the airport expansion is going to happen, I just hope my feelings of dread are way off the mark. I don't believe they are, but hope is all I have to cling to. I just pray the people are prepared for the ramifications failure could present. There could be many, many very difficult years ahead.

I noticed that as well ..odd a BVI resident is posting non stop from eastern Pennsylvania and believes one of those direct flights should be just up the road from him in Newark. LOL guess Calsail didn't click the IP into the free service and was fooled by likely a claim via the "internets" .

I have no beef if someone believes something different than I do..but this whole retread of its feasible to build a very expensive runway that may be dangerous or impossible to get certification..to change the makeup of the visitors to the BVI when the biggest problem is lack of increase in numbers ..so that even fewer come is beyond silly. At any rate he is indeed a troll with or without an agenda concerning the airport. so I will as I said I would a couple posts back.. make this my last post on the issue and wish him well in handling his sprawling BVI digs from Penn.

What I find to be the most interesting aspect is that the price dropped to $150 million from almost double that in all previous estimates and also the minor fact that NONE of the studies commissioned by the gov't have been released to the public. I'm thinking this may well earn the name "ObamaAir" ,as you won't know what you are getting until it's too late, but rest assured, it will be good for everybody, regardless of cost. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

The difference is the first proposal was for the runway, apron and terminal area and the runway extension was to be on pilings. This bid is for the runway and apron on fill with a couple of culverts so Trellis won't turn into a cesspool.

For anyone intrested,Here is a simulation of the flow in Trellis Bay during tidal reversals with the proposed runway extension. Blue= 0 current

With all due respect, this is not the 1990's. Hydrofoils have improved tremendously since then. The fact that they literally fly over the water, means that they are able to handle heavy weather conditions much more easily than a traditional boat and when a traditional boat could not even consider operating, a hydrofoil can.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ2sSRBMPqs

There are many hydrofoil ferries operating all over the world these days. Do a little research and I think you may be surprised at just how popular they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c-vh2b8hUU

In my opinion, alternative solutions should not be dismissed quite so off-handedly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVm8XrTfqLM

The government is going to be investing upwards of 150 million dollars (and very likely a lot more) in the new airport. Bad weather impacts airplanes as well as ferries.

All I am saying is that with a significant investment in a new ferry system, the BVI would be [color:"red"]guaranteed[/color] to benefit. The same investment in an extended airport runway is NOT a guarantee of anything. We will still be at the mercy of the various airlines.

The 35% is from the official GDP. There are many things that are not publicly known. Some people like utmost discretion, again see the Panama papers (not that this is some new insight). Furthermore, would you be surprised that these people would have a disproportionate influence on the government officials, possibly, quite possibly, even more than the voters?

The 'money' is not more in Liechtenstein or Nevada than anywhere else. The fraction of money in physical form (bills, coins etc) worldwide is 8.3% of the total, the rest is numbers in some files. And many of these files are on Castro Street...

Of course you could email your legitimate money to the BVI. But there is a number of people who go through great pains to make sure that it is NOT known where their money is. I have a feeling that the people that use Fonseca Mossack and other companies of their ilk don't choose Panama or the BVI because of the great interest rates or frequent flyer points on their credit card expenses...

I am not talking about 'corporate executives' that need to fly in to do business, or oligarchs meeting their yacht for a vacation. I am talking about people that have A LOT of money and that, for reasons of their own, don't want the US or the EU or other first-world countries know about it. They are not going to send the money with SWIFT or email like you or I would, but they (or their agents) have to deliver certain papers in person.

And this would not work if they go through customs in SJU, STT or SXM. In fact, a few years ago the BVI government explicitly said that they are getting behind in their business because some other Carib nation (I think it was Antigua) built an airport that allows private jets from S. America to fly in directly, without touching US or EU ground.

Aren't all the arguments (some by you) convincing that there is no way this whole endeavor has anything to do with passenger jets?

The family of the Chinese President Xi Jing alone has hundreds of millions of dollars secretly parked in the BVI (and these are only the numbers that became public last month). Maybe the Chinese government made the BVI government a good price, so they could get safely to their hoard?

Let's say the real cost is the double of what the Chinese will charge. Have a Chinese state-owned company write down 150M, so you have safe access to your own private hundreds of millions, what's not to like about that?

Sorry Ernst that is not how it works. The BVI does not have any large banks capable of dealing with funds anywhere close to that. The part the BVI plays in this shell game is the creations of empty secret shell corporations where the actual owners can never be traced. After opening a string of identity hiding corporations any funds or properties are put in the the names of those identity hiding corporations. The actual cash or assets of value never cross into the borders of the tiny BVI. The BVI makes their money by charging a fee to create and maintain each of those thousands of paper companies. Companies that never make anything or do anything other hide the identity of the true beneficiary of funds, stock, or real estate far away from the BVI.

The BVI does not offer the ability to guarantee or back any deposits in an actual BVI bank. No one with judgement would ever put any cash in an actual BVI bank.

In some simpler terms some of the physical paper work may be done in the BVI. In some cases a live person may travel to do paperwork real time to avoid the electronic trail and intermediaries. The real money travels electronically and there is certainly no place to put and keep real money on the BVI.

The BVI receives $200 million each year from the fees charged to own these hidden corporations. A simple regulatory change requiring the directors of each company be made public a change that the UK can dictate would make that $200M in cash to the BVI government go away. That shame corporate identity business is not sustainable and will go away at some point. Higher end tourism is the only viable option to replace that money the BVI government lives on today. Yes, Antigua has a brand new $100M airport built by the Chinese. Like others Antigua expects to double the number of their hotel rooms over the next 18 months. Bermuda is on the way to a new $200M outsources airport. St. Vincent will have a new airport open with 9,000 foot runway soon. The risk to the BVI here is maybe too little too late. Once the business leaves to the other markets with easier access the cost to get the business back will be very expensive. Can you make better ferry options sure. Can you compete for the best visitors using ferries where many others have direct jet access absolutely not.

High speed ferries are very expensive and major challenges to maintain. The motion aboard when the seas are up are awful. Motion that is very different than any boat. Ferry services around the world struggle and fail more than they succeed. Where they do survive the business is generally freight and cars coupled with passengers where airplanes are not part of the trip. The airport, taxi, ferry, taxi is not a 21st century winner. In Sydney and Seattle where commuter ferries work 2/3 of the cost is paid by taxpayer subsidy. Yes some visitors will take the bus from the public airport to the city center; most do not. The skip the airport and focus on the ferry argument ignores the tens of failures around the world and the visitor offerings others have recently finished and the others that will open shortly. It is time to join the team and focus the energy on getting a competitive runway in operation along with the offerings to get visitors to and from their plane seat to their final stop. Today the BVI is a business venue without a real street nor place to park.

The ATR's are retired now. They were old and tired but they were moved to the mainland after SJU was closed. There will always be a market for smaller aircraft. Delta plans on keeping 125 of the 50 seat CRJ's in their fleet long term. The new generation Turboprops are fantastic aircraft. They fly almost as fast as the jets and can often be turned quicker since they don't need to be fueled. The Bombardiar Q400 can carry up to 86 people, cruise at 400 MPH and operate out of Beef island today with no runway changes. There are bigger and faster turboprops coming!

All of that is true. Whether Delta along with others will be able to afford the pilots and staff to fly the the 50 seater jets is uncertain in the eyes of many. Time and the price of fuel and labor will be the primary factors and no one has a crystal ball to predict either one of those variables. Or maybe Congress will back track and reduce the safety limits Congress put on turboprops and small airline jets? Republic Airlines(the ghost of American Eagle) with 151 of those small jets and turbo props filed for bankruptcy at the end of February. The small 50 seater short hop business is no longer viable. The smartest and most experienced guys in the airline business have all run from it.

What is left out is the turboprop business case (if there is even one) starts falling apart at 300 mile legs. Going back to a BVI tourist model of flying to SJU, or one of the other Caribbean airports to take a turbo prop for one more leg is not a competitive model. No matter what the cost or how big the change and disruption to Trellis Bay the 1st World tourist business in the BVI is dependent on direct jet service from the US to Tortola. The future of Caribbean tourism is direct point to point jet service from the United States. We are not going back to 30 foot boats with air conditioning nor building 60's versions of the Holiday Inn. It is time to channel the energy towards making jet service to EIS work for everyone and creating the best possible outcome for a much changed Trellis Bay.

>300,000 overnight tourist spread evenly is +/-6,000 people each week. The plan is an equal number of tourist visitor 10 months out of the year. During the non peak month a good economy would see locals traveling the other direction on their own holiday or family visits.

Like many of my Canadian friends say. Skate to where the puck is going to be. Some seem to be trying to put the genie back in the bottle and skate to where the puck was long ago with some hope it will come back.

Sorry, this is not the way it works. What is in the suitcase is not bundles of $100 bills anymore, not more than it is gold nuggets. Those days are over. Your "real money" is just numbers in a file. And the file is in a shell company in Castro St.

And to move these numbers from a money laundering account in S America or a corruption tainted source in China etc, you don't send an email from your gmail account, and you don't use SWIFT. You go in person (or more likely send someone you really trust, like a cellist friend), and you make damned sure no US CISE agent sees your face or your passport.

In a nutshell the location is simply unsuitable for large jet operations. The BVI can lengthen the runway but unless they are going to move mountains it just does not work. There are currently no instrument approaches into EIS. Every Podunk airport I know has a GPS approach however you can't build one into EIS and meet the Terps criteria.
G

This is fascinating...learning lots about finance and aircraft!

Still why would a small country:
1. Embark on such a huge project that may damage its ecology/ beauty in the Trellis Bay Area when it is hugely unlikely that mass tourism will develop...and if it did would negatively affect its biggest tourist draw: charter yachting? The draw was 'natures little secret'.
2. Do so without ensuring employment/ involvement of a region where jobs / employment must be needed.
3. Looking at the more direct solution of ferries to St Thomas and flight link to SJU.

Building a new hospital is one thing... Not sure about the cruise pier - trying to get into bed with both the cruise industry and yacht charter industry might be risky ( both are potentially mobile enterprises). Time will tell. Love BVI but there are more interesting destinations than Road Town.

Not mine to say...it's their country but a shame to see their legacy sold. They have a special geography that works -would not capitalizing on their uniqueness work better that trying to be like the herd?

You are always on about the "best" visitors. My Goodness, you are an elitist! As Glenn has pointed out, currently, the vast majority of visitors to the BVI are in the upper middle and middle class. Do we just ignore them? Do we relegate them to the nasty old, smoke spewing ferries forever?



High speed ferries are no more difficult to maintain than airplanes, so let's get real here. The government has invested 7 million dollars in a company that may or may not help with airlift problems. It remains to be seen how that will pan out.

I have been on 2 hydrofoils in the last 5 years. Once the seas were very calm so I couldn't take away any "cons" from that experience. The other time, we had 8 to 10-foot seas and I didn't notice any "awful" motion ... so not sure where you are getting your information. It was bouncy to a degree, but nothing like it would be on a traditional ferry and speed was maintained throughout the trip which was 23 miles (approx.)

Obviously, design is a big part of a successful model. Some of the older hydrofoils would definitely fit into the questionable design category.



And your plan doesn't ignore the tens of countries that are circling the drain due to poor fiscal management? Please! Have you not heard of Greece, Venezuela or Puerto Rico? They are in dire straits financially because they overextended themselves to the point where they can no longer service even the interest on their debts. They are, for all intents and purposes, bankrupt. China is in trouble, so is Brazil, Thailand, Turkey, South Africa and others. In fact, there are dozens of countries in financial trouble because they have overspent for years and years and just like with any Ponzi scheme, the chickens eventually come home to roost. Of course, corruption has also played a role in several instances.




No thank you. Your "team" is not one I wish to be on. I prefer to float ... not crash and burn.

I have never heard of any leadership claim or plan of mass tourism. The plan is to just hold onto and improve the quality of the visitors that are already coming. Even the current young professionals accustomed to simply clicking everything online are not going to do the airplane, taxi, ferry dance. BVI tourism either gains direct major airline access or dies.

"The government has invested 7 million dollars in a company that may or may not help with airlift problems. It remains to be seen how that will pan out."

That is a very expensive short term patch to allow the business professionals to get in and out or South Florida until a long term airline solution can be completed.

You can try to shoot the messenger all you want. The story has been clear for a least a decade. Find a way to get higher end tourist. Here is Goal Number One straight from the BVI Government:

Increase the economic contribution of Tourism to the BVI by:
•Attracting a more discerning and higher spending visitor

See more at: http://www.bvitourism.com/vision-mission#sthash.kCXx7Nga.dpuf

Liane, you are confusing me with StormJib - I am for an improved ferry system, and against a new airport. I was merely making an observation about the USVI/BVI experience in the late 90s with the Russian hydrofoils. Thank you for the links, very interesting. I also read the wikipedia entry on hydrofoils which painted a pretty bright picture of them until you got to section 7 - "Disadvantages".

I guess I would be more concerned about hydrofoils and three things:

1) The BVI ferry operators being involved, playing nice and getting the maintenance done.
2) Time saved from the higher speeds possible, not making that much difference given the relatively short trip and delays due to C & I (at either end).
3) The reality of longer trips, that is, BVI to-and-from San Juan, and BVI to-and-from Sint Maarten, I still maintain what I said in an earlier post, "I think that the potential seas would make for some pretty crappy and/or canceled trips between San Juan and the BVI or the BVI and Sint Maarten in the winter months. As the old saying goes, "nothing goes to windward like a 747." Or even a Cessna 402! An STT -> EIS or SJU -> EIS flight with the Christmas winds blowing hard is not a big deal; an STT -> Road Town ferry ride will generally go in those conditions but... you get the idea.

The real problem with the current ferry system operators is their ill fit to the airlines' schedules, breakdowns/poor maintenance, canceling runs with little or no warning, and leaving considerably late. C & I at both ends are understaffed and handcuffed by multiple ferries arriving within 15 minutes of each other. (As I'm sure you well know.)

Anyway, as I said, not for the new airport, but really just don't like the lack of civility that is shown, especially towards my friend. I don't always agree with him either.

I will stay out of the long range debate but having spent 8 months last year to produce a 60 page report on the BVI ferry service I will say that your point #1 is the primary obstruction to a first class STT/BVI ferry service. The subject is too political and the government does not want to cross the families that own the ferries.

If the 3 companies would form a cooperative and work together with a central reservation system, an investment of less than $20 million could deliver hourly service between CA and West End on six new 100 passenger fast cats including an expansion of the West End ferry terminal.

As to the subject of "higher class" visitors, it is my observation that the typical middle class visitor has a much greater impact on the BVI ecconomy. Excluive resorts are isolated closed systems. For example, an oncologist friend claims to be a great fan of the BVI. He and his wife have spent two weeks for several years at Byras Creek. (BTW, They flew into STT and helicoptered to Byras.) But neither he nor his wife had ever heard of the Fat Virgin or Bitter End YC! What you see on the buffet at Peter Island never crossed the doors of Road Town Wholesale. The larger resorts provision through Miami and Ft. Lauderdale. Aside from the hotel tax and a nominal income withholding the revenue from these exclusive resorts does not stay in the islands.

In contrast, us "low rent folks" stay in accomodations that were built by local labor and the rent we pay supports the cleaners, maintenance and yard workers and local supervisors. We rent cars from local businessmen, drink booze at locally owned bars, eat at locally owned restaurants and buy things from locally owned stores.

Glenn, There is more detail and other options here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVis7Tf5KA8

Ghads. Reminds me of The Eagles song - The Last Resort.
Call something paradise, kiss it goodbye.

Actually Glenn, there were some great Op-Eds in the Beacon written by Bailey Penn (from East End Tortola) recalling the construction of Little Dix which included lots of names of BVIslanders and exactly what they did during the construction phase. Bailey is about 65 and a real character. He went to the US and joined the USNavy, I believe, serving on an aircraft carrier off the coast of Viet Nam. His navy trade was electrician, and he worked as one for many years in the US after getting out of the service. He eventually returned to the BVI. I first employed him in '99 for some work, and have known him since. He has a very low opinion of the BVI work ethic (at least in the trades), and would continually say that his fellow Tortola electricians wouldn't last a minute in the US!

I think it is rather clear that I don't agree with the government on this matter. Anyway ... flogging/dead horses and all that. What you think ... or ... what I think means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. According to the government, the project is going ahead and I wish them well for all our sakes. No amount of beating anyone over the head is going to change their mind, so I am calling it a day on this one.

I believe this is a good point to put this dead horse out of its misery.