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An Observation..And a Question
#195922
05/25/2019 05:56 PM
05/25/2019 05:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331 Deep East Texas
Ontheboat
OP
Traveler
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OP
Traveler
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331
Deep East Texas
|
First, an introduction:
As I'm sure Carol can attest, I'm one of those many people that "lurk a lot, post little". Over the many years on TTOL I've gleaned a significant amount of information from this forum. I post little, but because I have little to add.
My wife and I have owned sailboats for 25+ years. Sailed the Caribbean since the late '90's. Know our way around the back roads and some of the old names and faces: some still here, some not.
Because of a mother nature (lightning strike on our boat) issue, we've been away from the BVI's for a couple of years and are looking to return. We've kept track of the recovery from Hurricane Irma and even donated to the recovery. But, we are ready to visit again.
Yes, we were around when Billy Bones went away (still have the T Shirts, kids remember the crab races out back) and were not a fan of the high-end Pirate's Bight. Stayed at Tamarind Club several times and remember the kids helped shoo away the cows in the evening (and the resident cat that did not like me). Those days ended and it was sad. However, reading through so many posts and current trip reports, our concern about returning is increased with every comment.
This Boaty Ball situation sounds absolutely insane - yet not unexpected for the way the few control the many in the islands.
Arriving. Provisioning. Heading out the first day. All are full of tips/tricks/preferences that can be interesting and fun. But, from then on out having to "adjust to the new way" with BB seems to both bring the stress many of us are trying to leave behind and completely defeat the purpose of the visiting adventure.
The mid-afternoon battle for the last mooring ball is a right of passage and an adventure. People sit on their boats solely for the entertainment. Being able to pick up a ball mid-day to eat lunch or fill tanks and head to the next stop is important. Watching the boat boy come around to grab your soggy dollars (sorry had to do that) and then keeping the receipts, of which we have many, is a joy.
Now? Download an app. Get Wifi. Peck around on your phone and plan. Fight over who gets the ball. And, as the BB people say "accommodate", is insane.
We come to the islands to get away from apps, internet, scheduling, coordinating, fighting....and BB has introduced it to paradise.
Someone convince me that progress like this is good.
-Carib Guy
Capt D (Caribguy) s/v Mollie Jean "When I go to heaven, I want to go from the islands..it's closer"
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#195925
05/25/2019 06:56 PM
05/25/2019 06:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 322
Christo
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 322
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First, an introduction:
As I'm sure Carol can attest, I'm one of those many people that "lurk a lot, post little". Over the many years on TTOL I've gleaned a significant amount of information from this forum. I post little, but because I have little to add.
My wife and I have owned sailboats for 25+ years. Sailed the Caribbean since the late '90's. Know our way around the back roads and some of the old names and faces: some still here, some not.
Because of a mother nature (lightning strike on our boat) issue, we've been away from the BVI's for a couple of years and are looking to return. We've kept track of the recovery from Hurricane Irma and even donated to the recovery. But, we are ready to visit again.
Yes, we were around when Billy Bones went away (still have the T Shirts, kids remember the crab races out back) and were not a fan of the high-end Pirate's Bight. Stayed at Tamarind Club several times and remember the kids helped shoo away the cows in the evening (and the resident cat that did not like me). Those days ended and it was sad. However, reading through so many posts and current trip reports, our concern about returning is increased with every comment.
This Boaty Ball situation sounds absolutely insane - yet not unexpected for the way the few control the many in the islands.
Arriving. Provisioning. Heading out the first day. All are full of tips/tricks/preferences that can be interesting and fun. But, from then on out having to "adjust to the new way" with BB seems to both bring the stress many of us are trying to leave behind and completely defeat the purpose of the visiting adventure.
The mid-afternoon battle for the last mooring ball is a right of passage and an adventure. People sit on their boats solely for the entertainment. Being able to pick up a ball mid-day to eat lunch or fill tanks and head to the next stop is important. Watching the boat boy come around to grab your soggy dollars (sorry had to do that) and then keeping the receipts, of which we have many, is a joy.
Now? Download an app. Get Wifi. Peck around on your phone and plan. Fight over who gets the ball. And, as the BB people say "accommodate", is insane.
We come to the islands to get away from apps, internet, scheduling, coordinating, fighting....and BB has introduced it to paradise.
Someone convince me that progress like this is good.
-Carib Guy +1 ...and so many other reasons it's a dreadful idea.
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: bailau]
#195927
05/25/2019 07:11 PM
05/25/2019 07:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331 Deep East Texas
Ontheboat
OP
Traveler
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OP
Traveler
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331
Deep East Texas
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Bailau,
But...during high season I suspect the situation would be reversed.
Side Question: How long has Deliverance been gone?
Capt D (Caribguy) s/v Mollie Jean "When I go to heaven, I want to go from the islands..it's closer"
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: bailau]
#195929
05/25/2019 07:21 PM
05/25/2019 07:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 64 Waco, Texas
Alec Atteberry
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 64
Waco, Texas
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So in October I know I can check the website in the morning and if the BB's arent filling up for the day I can stroll into a BB harbor late in the day and squat on a boaty ball and not be bothered by the FCFS ball collectors...:) We all agree that there needs to be more moorings in the BVI. Locals are hesitant to invest in more moorings when they aren't getting paid for the ones they already have. I understand that you don’t like BoatyBall, but I’d hope you’d at least help out the local bay owners.
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#195932
05/25/2019 07:48 PM
05/25/2019 07:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331 Deep East Texas
Ontheboat
OP
Traveler
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OP
Traveler
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331
Deep East Texas
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Alec,
I appreciate your perspective. I smiled at your (correct) comment about progress seeming pretty jarring and unnatural. To those that have been going for years, it's the old "like boiling a frog" syndrome. You don't see it on a year-to-year basis, but if you take a break and go back, even with the horrible events like a hurricane, it does bring some things to perspective.
Ilon time is Ilon time. Injecting internet, apps, and online reservation rules just destroys that.
The rules should be simple:
1. First to the ball, gets the ball. 2. Enjoy watching others racing to get to the last ball. 3. Cheer the winner. 4. Invite them for a drink. 5. Put the **** cell phone away. You don't need an app to enjoy the BVI's
Capt D (Caribguy) s/v Mollie Jean "When I go to heaven, I want to go from the islands..it's closer"
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#195933
05/25/2019 08:00 PM
05/25/2019 08:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,003
sail445
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,003
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Alec,
I appreciate your perspective. I smiled at your (correct) comment about progress seeming pretty jarring and unnatural. To those that have been going for years, it's the old "like boiling a frog" syndrome. You don't see it on a year-to-year basis, but if you take a break and go back, even with the horrible events like a hurricane, it does bring some things to perspective.
Ilon time is Ilon time. Injecting internet, apps, and online reservation rules just destroys that.
The rules should be simple:
1. First to the ball, gets the ball. 2. Enjoy watching others racing to get to the last ball. 3. Cheer the winner. 4. Invite them for a drink. 5. Put the **** cell phone away. You don't need an app to enjoy the BVI's The newer charterers look at the BVI like a Caribbean Las Vegas and don’t really care much about it’s history & natural beauty.
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#195934
05/25/2019 08:03 PM
05/25/2019 08:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 64 Waco, Texas
Alec Atteberry
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 64
Waco, Texas
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Alec,
I appreciate your perspective. I smiled at your (correct) comment about progress seeming pretty jarring and unnatural. To those that have been going for years, it's the old "like boiling a frog" syndrome. You don't see it on a year-to-year basis, but if you take a break and go back, even with the horrible events like a hurricane, it does bring some things to perspective.
Ilon time is Ilon time. Injecting internet, apps, and online reservation rules just destroys that.
The rules should be simple:
1. First to the ball, gets the ball. 2. Enjoy watching others racing to get to the last ball. 3. Cheer the winner. 4. Invite them for a drink. 5. Put the **** cell phone away. You don't need an app to enjoy the BVI's I agree with a lot of that. When I head down there my phone goes into airplane mode and I only bring it out to take pictures or keep in touch with friends every couple of days or so. That being said there are so many boats and the demand is high in many of the bays so it sucks to have to leave the water at 1 to find a mooring. BoatyBall makes it easier for the locals to manage their moorings and it provides boaters with a way to stay on the water longer even if it does involve getting your phone out for a couple of minutes. For me that’s worth it, and for others it may not be; just different tastes. Also, as Christo pointed out yesterday, there’s still plenty of mooring ball entertainment left in the BVI. Cheers
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#195949
05/26/2019 06:59 AM
05/26/2019 06:59 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 770 Kansas
captmoby
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 770
Kansas
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Deliverance is still there. It appears to be under new ownership and not quite as reliable as in the past.
Jim Sailmoby II
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Alec Atteberry]
#195956
05/26/2019 08:25 AM
05/26/2019 08:25 AM
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Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,368 Washington DC
bailau
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,368
Washington DC
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So in October I know I can check the website in the morning and if the BB's arent filling up for the day I can stroll into a BB harbor late in the day and squat on a boaty ball and not be bothered by the FCFS ball collectors...:) We all agree that there needs to be more moorings in the BVI. Locals are hesitant to invest in more moorings when they aren't getting paid for the ones they already have. I understand that you don’t like BoatyBall, but I’d hope you’d at least help out the local bay owners. Dont worry my friend...I have donated and continue to donate significant money to charities, business owners, staff and others who make the place great. It may not bring any profit for me (outside any charitable deduction) but it also has the upside of not making any fellow boaters lives harder...
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#195960
05/26/2019 09:02 AM
05/26/2019 09:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 229 West Chester, PA
ligot
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 229
West Chester, PA
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First, an introduction:
As I'm sure Carol can attest, I'm one of those many people that "lurk a lot, post little". Over the many years on TTOL I've gleaned a significant amount of information from this forum. I post little, but because I have little to add.
My wife and I have owned sailboats for 25+ years. Sailed the Caribbean since the late '90's. Know our way around the back roads and some of the old names and faces: some still here, some not.
Because of a mother nature (lightning strike on our boat) issue, we've been away from the BVI's for a couple of years and are looking to return. We've kept track of the recovery from Hurricane Irma and even donated to the recovery. But, we are ready to visit again.
Yes, we were around when Billy Bones went away (still have the T Shirts, kids remember the crab races out back) and were not a fan of the high-end Pirate's Bight. Stayed at Tamarind Club several times and remember the kids helped shoo away the cows in the evening (and the resident cat that did not like me). Those days ended and it was sad. However, reading through so many posts and current trip reports, our concern about returning is increased with every comment.
This Boaty Ball situation sounds absolutely insane - yet not unexpected for the way the few control the many in the islands.
Arriving. Provisioning. Heading out the first day. All are full of tips/tricks/preferences that can be interesting and fun. But, from then on out having to "adjust to the new way" with BB seems to both bring the stress many of us are trying to leave behind and completely defeat the purpose of the visiting adventure.
The mid-afternoon battle for the last mooring ball is a right of passage and an adventure. People sit on their boats solely for the entertainment. Being able to pick up a ball mid-day to eat lunch or fill tanks and head to the next stop is important. Watching the boat boy come around to grab your soggy dollars (sorry had to do that) and then keeping the receipts, of which we have many, is a joy.
Now? Download an app. Get Wifi. Peck around on your phone and plan. Fight over who gets the ball. And, as the BB people say "accommodate", is insane.
We come to the islands to get away from apps, internet, scheduling, coordinating, fighting....and BB has introduced it to paradise.
Someone convince me that progress like this is good.
-Carib Guy No one enjoys the late day theater of "mooring ball hussle" more than me and I'm pretty BB won't eliminate that. Pour a Painkiller and enjoy. Sometimes different isn't better or worse, it's just different. (I thought the guy doing figure 8's in front of me at Taboo trying to get a ball last year was hysterical until he came within 4 ft of my bow!) As for the difference now vs "then" I have a short story. So we caught the bug on a trip in BVI in 2010 and LOVED it so much we took lessons.Now 6 charters in we feel more experienced but still learning. Kind of "been there" but still very much our "Happy Place". But ... on our last trip I got to see it through the eyes of new crew, waking up to the beautiful water every day. Eager to take sunset pics every night. Wide eyed at the beauty of Cow Wreck, appreciative of the life style and feeling every day like it's the best vacation EVER! So I hear ya, (and everyone really) that sure, things change but from coffee on the stern every morning to rum drinks every night in a new beach shack, the sun in my face and the calm of the sail .... I love St Martin and I love Spanish Virgins but I LIVE for our sailing trips to BVI and I can't imagine a few changes convincing me otherwise.
S/V Tortuga Lagoon 46
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Alec Atteberry]
#195995
05/26/2019 02:20 PM
05/26/2019 02:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 322
Christo
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 322
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Alec,
I appreciate your perspective. I smiled at your (correct) comment about progress seeming pretty jarring and unnatural. To those that have been going for years, it's the old "like boiling a frog" syndrome. You don't see it on a year-to-year basis, but if you take a break and go back, even with the horrible events like a hurricane, it does bring some things to perspective.
Ilon time is Ilon time. Injecting internet, apps, and online reservation rules just destroys that.
The rules should be simple:
1. First to the ball, gets the ball. 2. Enjoy watching others racing to get to the last ball. 3. Cheer the winner. 4. Invite them for a drink. 5. Put the **** cell phone away. You don't need an app to enjoy the BVI's I agree with a lot of that. When I head down there my phone goes into airplane mode and I only bring it out to take pictures or keep in touch with friends every couple of days or so. That being said there are so many boats and the demand is high in many of the bays so it sucks to have to leave the water at 1 to find a mooring. BoatyBall makes it easier for the locals to manage their moorings and it provides boaters with a way to stay on the water longer even if it does involve getting your phone out for a couple of minutes. For me that’s worth it, and for others it may not be; just different tastes. Also, as Christo pointed out yesterday, there’s still plenty of mooring ball entertainment left in the BVI. Cheers Matey...you are really not getting it!
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Christo]
#196007
05/26/2019 04:52 PM
05/26/2019 04:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331 Deep East Texas
Ontheboat
OP
Traveler
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OP
Traveler
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 331
Deep East Texas
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[quote=Alec Atteberry][quote=Ontheboat]Alec,
Most of the anchorages have Turtle grass and the boats anchoring there for years before the mooring balls hardly had any effect on it. If you dive the anchorages today you’ll see large circles of sand around the mooring balls where the balls movement 24 hours a day had destroyed the grass.
OK (this may need a separate thread): first time in the BVI's. FIRST NIGHT! We anchor off of Peter. Now, mooring balls are foreign to us. We anchor 100% of the time. So, we get settled. 3 young kids. Good anchor lay. Eat dinner. Kids down. Relax. Not. We are drifting so far off of point that we are convinced with are full dragging. Then, we come back. Hummm. My wife and I alternate ALL night on watch. At one point, just before sunrise, the JB song "Manana" comes to mind which includes the verse: "While the lights of St. Thomas lie twenty miles west I see General Electric's still doing their best"....That's what we could see. The cause of our sleepless night? We anchored just off a shelf. About half the rode was off the shelf and swaying us back and forth. So, now, we watch the bottom for sand and avoid coral heads, etc.
Capt D (Caribguy) s/v Mollie Jean "When I go to heaven, I want to go from the islands..it's closer"
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#196008
05/26/2019 04:58 PM
05/26/2019 04:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 322
Christo
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 322
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[quote=Alec Atteberry][quote=Ontheboat]Alec,
Most of the anchorages have Turtle grass and the boats anchoring there for years before the mooring balls hardly had any effect on it. If you dive the anchorages today you’ll see large circles of sand around the mooring balls where the balls movement 24 hours a day had destroyed the grass.
OK (this may need a separate thread): first time in the BVI's. FIRST NIGHT! We anchor off of Peter. Now, mooring balls are foreign to us. We anchor 100% of the time. So, we get settled. 3 young kids. Good anchor lay. Eat dinner. Kids down. Relax. Not. We are drifting so far off of point that we are convinced with are full dragging. Then, we come back. Hummm. My wife and I alternate ALL night on watch. At one point, just before sunrise, the JB song "Manana" comes to mind which includes the verse: "While the lights of St. Thomas lie twenty miles west I see General Electric's still doing their best"....That's what we could see. The cause of our sleepless night? We anchored just off a shelf. About half the rode was off the shelf and swaying us back and forth. So, now, we watch the bottom for sand and avoid coral heads, etc. Where we come from snorkeling the anchor would be both unpleasantly cold, likely impossible due to lack of vis...and also probably considered cheating. However, here in BVI, once we've set the anchor I always put a mask on and check it visually...check around for obstructions...check its bitten well...and on a Sunsail boat with broken chain-counter and uncalibrated chain, check we have estimated the scope we need correctly. Peter has a lot of spots similar to the one you must have been in! I wonder if snorkeling the anchor after setting would allow you a more restful night in future? It certainly gives us a lot more peace of mind!
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Ontheboat]
#196095
05/27/2019 03:10 PM
05/27/2019 03:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 37
Donald
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 37
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I would suggest that the BVI you remember is more aligned with the post-Irma BVI that exists today. Up until Feb 2018, I was fed up with the long waits at Full Moon Party bars (at Trellis) and decided I had had enough FMPs. I sailed in Feb 2018 (a couple months after Irma) and I could get a drink after only a couple minutes in a line up at the FMP.
In 2015, on a guy's trip we dedicated two nights (one at start of trip and 1 at the end) at the Bight (because of the popularity of Willy T's). In both of those instances, ALL of the Bight Mooring Balls (between 75 & 100 we were told) were in use by late afternoon. In Feb 2019, I was on a 3 boat flotilla and we arrived at the Bight after 330PM and we all got MBs. Of course the fact that Willy T's is no longer there would have played a role in that.
My point is the BVIs has not completely recovered from Irma and perhaps people are going elsewhere to sail (I, for one, am going to the Grenadines next February and, truth be told, I'm mixed about not going to the BVIs). As some others on this board have mentioned, the nickel and dime approach of the government (particularly in the area of fees and taxes) is slowly killing the golden goose that sailing has brought the islands.
But if you get off the beaten path and away from the main anchorages, you will find plenty of places to drop the hook. Popular places bring boats and these days those places need mooring balls (and in some cases, they need more!).
I might also say there is a bit of an upside to the overall popularity. Again comparing the planning of a BVI trip to our recent experience booking a boat in the Grenadines, the BVIs has more charter companies, larger fleets, better options for those with different sailing budgets and easier access by air making it a better travel experience than other parts of the Caribbean. But all those options is bringing about the by-product (more people) that started the OP's thread.
D
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Re: An Observation..And a Question
[Re: Donald]
#196117
05/27/2019 08:06 PM
05/27/2019 08:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 304 Rockford, Michigan
aarpskier
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 304
Rockford, Michigan
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I I might also say there is a bit of an upside to the overall popularity. Again comparing the planning of a BVI trip to our recent experience booking a boat in the Grenadines, the BVIs has more charter companies, larger fleets, better options for those with different sailing budgets and easier access by air making it a better travel experience than other parts of the Caribbean. But all those options is bringing about the by-product (more people) that started the OP's thread. D I am not sure I understand the "upside" argument. It has always been more difficult to get to the Grenadines than to the BVI. (AA through San Juan provided lots of "downside"). However, smaller charter fleets and relatively fewer people are a plus, not a negative. And you can now fly direct from Miami to St Lucia or Grenada! It's been 10 years since we last visited, but I assume Bequia and Mustique still have plenty of non-BB FCFS mooring balls and great restaurants, there are still boat boys in the Tobago Cays who will deliver fresh grilled lobster and red snapper to your boat, and snorkeling the reef north of Petit Tabac is still superb. Those things are what I remember about our "travel experience,"
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