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Textiles on "nude" beaches #26739
05/06/2014 09:12 PM
05/06/2014 09:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Left Coast USA
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UncleAl32 Offline OP
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My wife and I have been visiting Baker Beach in San Francisco once or twice each summer for the past 15-20 years. For as long as we've been coming, the north end of BB has been the nude section and the south end the textile section. Like most nude beaches, obnoxious clothed male gawkers have long been a problem, and men have greatly outnumbered women, but you could always count on the vast majority of north end beach goers being nude or topless.

This has changed in the past 2-3 years. We visited BB last week. There were perhaps 150-200 people at the north end, with about 2/3 of them, both men and women, in bathing suits or otherwise clothed. They did not exhibit typical "gawker behavior," and seemingly paid no attention to the nude users.

Few of the textiles were aging baby boomers. Most were millennials or gen-y's. I can only assume that millennials, at least in California, have become used to public nudity, and while not participating themselves, are not put off by nudists.

One problem is that the presence of so many textiles has severely reduced the number of female nudists. (My wife no longer disrobes at BB.) I counted three nude women, all of whom were with their equally nude husbands or b/f. In marked contrast, I saw maybe 9-10 couples like us where he was nude and she wasn't, not even topless. I also noticed maybe 10-12 topless women. The rest of the nudists were men, either alone or with other nude men.

On another forum, I exchanged comments with a poster who frequents Black's Beach in San Diego, who said the same phenomenon is occurring there.

Has anyone else noticed this trend elsewhere?

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Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: UncleAl32] #26740
05/07/2014 01:33 AM
05/07/2014 01:33 AM

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UncleAl32 said:
...Has anyone else noticed this trend elsewhere?

Yes. It has happened at various C/O beaches in the Malibu area of California and in Hawaii, and I'm told by a German woman friend that it is happening in Germany and the Canary Islands and the various islands of the Mediterranean. In California and Hawaii, I feel that it is partly due to expanding urban and resort areas and the rising cost of newly built homes that overlook what used to be wild shoreline. It also seems to coincide with the influx of Asians, muslims, and Latinos in recent decades, all of these groups much more covered up in their clothing rules. It has gotten so that a preference for beach nudity is a guarantee that the person is "of a certain age" - even in Frei Körper Kultur Germany and among Germans on vacation. All I can say is.... crap!

~Reggie~

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: UncleAl32] #26741
05/07/2014 12:19 PM
05/07/2014 12:19 PM

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UncleAl32 said:
My wife and I have been visiting Baker Beach in San Francisco once or twice each summer for the past 15-20 years. For as long as we've been coming, the north end of BB has been the nude section and the south end the textile section. Like most nude beaches, obnoxious clothed male gawkers have long been a problem, and men have greatly outnumbered women, but you could always count on the vast majority of north end beach goers being nude or topless.

This has changed in the past 2-3 years. We visited BB last week. There were perhaps 150-200 people at the north end, with about 2/3 of them, both men and women, in bathing suits or otherwise clothed. They did not exhibit typical "gawker behavior," and seemingly paid no attention to the nude users.

Few of the textiles were aging baby boomers. Most were millennials or gen-y's. I can only assume that millennials, at least in California, have become used to public nudity, and while not participating themselves, are not put off by nudists.

One problem is that the presence of so many textiles has severely reduced the number of female nudists. (My wife no longer disrobes at BB.) I counted three nude women, all of whom were with their equally nude husbands or b/f. In marked contrast, I saw maybe 9-10 couples like us where he was nude and she wasn't, not even topless. I also noticed maybe 10-12 topless women. The rest of the nudists were men, either alone or with other nude men.

On another forum, I exchanged comments with a poster who frequents Black's Beach in San Diego, who said the same phenomenon is occurring there.

Has anyone else noticed this trend elsewhere?
Appreciate your update on Baker Beach, haven't visited in many years, was curious as to current conditions. The north end was entirely nude and mostly male at the time, a girl I knew (SF native) took me there and it was my 1st nude beach experience. Next trip to SF we will be sure to visit!

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26742
05/07/2014 03:22 PM
05/07/2014 03:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 28
Left Coast USA
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UncleAl32 Offline OP
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It also seems to coincide with the influx of Asians, muslims, and Latinos in recent decades, all of these groups much more covered up in their clothing rules.

Reginald, while there may have been Latinos, Orientals and Moslems in the crowd, the majority of the textiles were whites. Like many millennials, when the outer clothing comes off to reveal the bikinis or board shorts, tattoos were abundant.

And to Unregistered, just remember to check the weather forecast before visiting. Unfortunately, coming to SF to visit Baker Beach is not something you can plan ahead. It has to be spur of the moment. That's because there are just a handful of days when it's warm enough to go to the beach.

And, do NOT rely on the San Francisco weather forecast! It can be 90F in downtown SF (where the weather is recorded) and 65F and windy at the beach. Google "Baker Beach weather" and you get the straight skinny.

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: UncleAl32] #26743
05/07/2014 04:41 PM
05/07/2014 04:41 PM

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UncleAl32 said:
...while there may have been Latinos, Orientals and Moslems in the crowd, the majority of the textiles were whites....

My mentioning them was to point out their greater influence throughout our general society in recent years. Here in Los Angeles, there was even a change in the L.A. Times underwear ads, starting in the 80s, to increasingly modest depictions in even the pen-and-ink drawings. Attendance at the previously predominantly C/O beaches by the young/hippy crowd has turned to very sparse attendance by isolated single males who appear to be in their 50s or 60s. My German friend tells me that this mirrors the situations in Germany, the Mediterranean, and and the Canaries where she swims and suns regularly. Her pet peeve is about surfers. She complains that wherever they go, the tone of the beach changes to textile.

~Reggie~

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26744
05/07/2014 07:41 PM
05/07/2014 07:41 PM

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Wouldn't one exception be the surfers at San Onofre circa 1980? Those guys never wore suits!

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26745
05/08/2014 12:22 PM
05/08/2014 12:22 PM

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Anonymous said:
Wouldn't one exception be the surfers at San Onofre circa 1980? Those guys never wore suits!

I... guess. There will always be exceptions. We are exceptions. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> In the case of San Onofre, the nude surfers are just the nudists among the local surfers. What my German friend has seen, and it seems to carry into Mexico as well, is that the first wave of "discovery" of an area for tourism and then vacation homes and then luxury retirement homes is the arrival of "safari surfers". Or, in the 1970s - the arrival of the hippies. The locals may or may not be offended, but they're so off the beaten path that laws do not apply as strongly as the lure of a more-than-subsistence income by selling food/meals/liquor/pot to the weird visitors. Vendors set up shop, campsites appear, then bed-and-breakfasts develop, then voilą(!) - a destination resort. And then Norman Luftman appears...

~Reggie~

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26746
05/08/2014 04:08 PM
05/08/2014 04:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 196
SW Florida
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Norman Luftman or Norman Paperman? (smile)

"Callaloo, strange callaloo......"


"Be a Traveler, not a tourist!"
Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: CptCook] #26747
05/08/2014 09:52 PM
05/08/2014 09:52 PM

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CptCook said:
Norman Luftman or Norman Paperman? [...]

Sorry - it was Norbert Luftman who became a big developer of Orient Bay (along with a local partner) after Luftman's Air France connection back to Paris was delayed, and he (and his family) saw Orient Bay for the 1st time and it reminded him of St. Tropez in its development potential. That was about 15 years ago, about the time restrictions on nudity along the beach began.

~Reggie~

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26748
05/09/2014 01:22 AM
05/09/2014 01:22 AM

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I'd have to agree that must of been a tragic moment when someone chose to cram chairs like sardines.

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26749
05/09/2014 09:20 AM
05/09/2014 09:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,654
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I believe that Mr. Luftman has been at Orient more than 15 years. Although I am not 100% sure, I believe that he originally owned L'Hoste and the other hotels in that complex. L'hoste was there for Lenny, which was in 95. After Club O was blown away, along with most of the rest of the island, we stayed at L'Hoste in early 96. The real explosion of development happened maybe 15 years ago though, I agree.


Carol Hill
Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Carol_Hill] #26750
05/09/2014 10:00 AM
05/09/2014 10:00 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,083
Virginia
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Well, Elisa opened Bikini Beach in 1992 - and had the lease from Luftman for that, so he was involved at least since 1992 - which is 22 years ago. Reggie just has trouble believing how old he is!

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Snorkeller] #26751
05/09/2014 10:08 AM
05/09/2014 10:08 AM
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Posts: 65,654
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OK, thanks. I thought 15 years was a bit short for Luftman's involvement at Orient.


Carol Hill
Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Carol_Hill] #26752
05/09/2014 01:08 PM
05/09/2014 01:08 PM

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Carol_Hill said:
I believe that Mr. Luftman has been at Orient more than 15 years. Although I am not 100% sure, I believe that he originally owned L'Hoste and the other hotels in that complex. L'hoste was there for Lenny, which was in 95. After Club O was blown away, along with most of the rest of the island, we stayed at L'Hoste in early 96. The real explosion of development happened maybe 15 years ago though, I agree.
Please give us your recollections of how Club O appeared 1-year after the storm. We visited Club O for the first time last fall and had a long conversation with one of the senior security men (forget his name) (he also transports you to/from room upon arrival/departure) and he described the post storm scene. He mentioned that the trees were all shipped in from Florida and replanted.

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26753
05/09/2014 01:17 PM
05/09/2014 01:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,654
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We were there in February 1996, I believe. I actually can't remember when we were there next after that. I think we went again toward the end of 1996, but not sure. In February, I believe there was one building still there, which was immediately behind Papagayo. Otherwise, everything was gone. At that time, they were serving drinks out of a cooler, in front of that building. It was an eerie feeling, seeing nothing there at all..


Carol Hill
Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Snorkeller] #26754
05/10/2014 12:37 AM
05/10/2014 12:37 AM

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Snorkeller said:
[....]Reggie just has trouble believing how old he is!

I'll drink to that! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/dine.gif" alt="" /> Most of what I know about Norbert Luftman came from a translation of an article in a French magazine published around 2001. At that time he was with his beautiful (much younger) 2nd wife, and he said that the Orient Bay project would be his last development project. The tone of the article seemed to indicate that his Orient Bay development had just gotten underway, and perhaps his "last development" referred to building of the "Village" where Alamanda is. I hadn't known that Sarah (actually her mother) wasn't the original owner of L'Hoste.

~Reggie~

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26755
05/10/2014 10:37 AM
05/10/2014 10:37 AM
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Quote
Anonymous said:
Quote
CptCook said:
Norman Luftman or Norman Paperman? [...]

Sorry - it was Norbert Luftman who became a big developer of Orient Bay (along with a local partner) after Luftman's Air France connection back to Paris was delayed, and he (and his family) saw Orient Bay for the 1st time and it reminded him of St. Tropez in its development potential. That was about 15 years ago, about the time restrictions on nudity along the beach began.

~Reggie~


And Norman Paperman is the protagonist in "Don't Stop the Carnival", Herman Wouk's novel of a bumbling Hotelier in the Caribbean !


"Be a Traveler, not a tourist!"
Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Carol_Hill] #26756
05/19/2014 08:25 AM
05/19/2014 08:25 AM
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Carol:
The hurricane that did all of the damage in '95 was Luis. Lenny came in '99 and did most of its damage on the other side of the island. Storm names are not really relevant however. Norbert Luftman was indeed on the island by then, but I am not convinced that he is the whole problem. One of his proprietors, Jerry Ravel, catered to nudists both before and after Luis (and Jerry got Kon Tiki back up and running fairly quickly after Luis).
On the other hand, after Luftman got control of Liberty Plage, near St. Tropez, (in, as I recall, 1993) from the elderly couple who retired then, he or his staff instituted a dress code.

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: jiminboston] #26757
05/19/2014 06:23 PM
05/19/2014 06:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 65,654
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Carol_Hill Offline
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Wow, I know that Luis was in 95, and Lenny in 99, not sure why I typed what I did. At 9:20 in the morning, can't blame it on a cocktail either. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Smile.gif" alt="" />


Carol Hill
Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26758
07/10/2014 09:37 PM
07/10/2014 09:37 PM
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Quote
Anonymous said:
Quote
Anonymous said:
Wouldn't one exception be the surfers at San Onofre circa 1980? Those guys never wore suits!

I... guess. There will always be exceptions. We are exceptions. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" /> In the case of San Onofre, the nude surfers are just the nudists among the local surfers. What my German friend has seen, and it seems to carry into Mexico as well, is that the first wave of "discovery" of an area for tourism and then vacation homes and then luxury retirement homes is the arrival of "safari surfers". Or, in the 1970s - the arrival of the hippies. The locals may or may not be offended, but they're so off the beaten path that laws do not apply as strongly as the lure of a more-than-subsistence income by selling food/meals/liquor/pot to the weird visitors. Vendors set up shop, campsites appear, then bed-and-breakfasts develop, then voilą(!) - a destination resort. And then Norman Luftman appears...

~Reggie~
It is Norbert Luftman. Anyway, the effect described by the original poster is not a problem at Club Orient, even if Luftman is just down the beach from here. We have about as many clothed guys with naked women as v/v.

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches #26759
07/14/2014 09:45 AM
07/14/2014 09:45 AM
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Another reason why fewer women go to c/o beaches is not just gawkers, but gawkers with cell phones taking pictures and videos. This is a real fear that such pictures and videos wind up on social media sites. The majority of people today still look down upon nudists and their ways. Employers and other friends and family members have negative reactions and take punitive measures towards a nudist family member , friend, or employee. Un fair as this may be, this is the reality.
On a recent trip to Cupecoy, we were sitting with five of our friends all nudists when a family of textiles appeared at one of the villas and began taking photos with a wide angle lens camera and a cell phone. Nudists have every right to be wary of textiles on c/o beaches.

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Joecool] #26760
07/14/2014 11:43 AM
07/14/2014 11:43 AM

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Joecool mentioned:
[....] gawkers with cell phones taking pictures and videos. This is a real fear that such pictures and videos wind up on social media sites. [....]


About a year ago I stumbled upon a website which showed secretly taken videos of women at topless and nude beaches in the Mediterranean. The pervs apparently have a "circuit" of beaches where they gather material for their website year after year, using small concealed vidcams. In just a short time, I expect to see drones flying along the shorelines of popular nude beaches which stop to hover awhile over sunning nudists.

~Reggie~

Re: Textiles on "nude" beaches [Re: Joecool] #26761
07/14/2014 01:10 PM
07/14/2014 01:10 PM

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Took the Tiko Tiko excursion to Tintamarre and a sailboat anchored nearby had a passenger that was snapping photos as we exited the water and climbed aboard. We all laughed as we gave him the proverbial "moon" but I had to wonder out loud why anyone would covet a picture of me nude? I am an old man.


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