Someone died?/Maho Jet Blast

At Maho???? From jet blast?

Sad but true.

https://www.thedailyherald.sx/islands/67600-breaking-news-woman-dies-after-jet-blast-at-airport

So sad. Plenty of signs warning against, but everyone still does it.

Update Here

Terribly tragic. NY Daily news reported that this was the first fatality ever reported although another person was seriously injured in 2012.
Considering the amount of people that are doing this, and the dangers involved, I was surprised that this was the first fatality.

Sorry to hear the sad news. Do you think it would be worthwhile to add protective padding around the concrete?

Protective padding? Perhaps but how about people use common sense and don't knowingly do stupid and unsafe things.

After managing an Emergency Department for MANY years I realized there can only be so much done to protect people from themselves.

Tragic event and different but similar situations occur every day everywhere

Very True. Yearly on average in the U.S. there are 20 deaths from skydiving, 90 deaths worldwide from scuba diving, and over 700 cycling deaths in the U.S. Should we try to stop people from doing these dangerous activities too?

It is sad that it happened but standing at the fence is one of the most asinine things I've seen. I've never understood the motivation to do it. It doesn't look enjoyable. The internet is loaded with videos of people getting hurt and sandblasted. It's like playing Russian roulette. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We passed that area at around 6:15 last night. Saw flashing police lights and many people standing in the road at the end of the runway. We also passed an ambulance and emergency vehicles as we headed towards Simpson Bay. There was a very significant emergency response. We wondered if it was jet blast related or whether someone had been struck by a car. So sad to hear it ended in a fatality.

Apples and oranges - while dangerous these activities in the hands of those trained and experienced reduce the risks - standing at the fence at Maho is simply dangerous and foolish and requires no special skill - observing the warning signs seems easy enough to me.

Yup...

Look at something as simple as wearing seat belts. You can make it a law, you can put buzzers/verbal reminders in cars and place flashing signs on the highway but most everyday (yesterday in RI) there are stories about people who just decide to make the informed decision not to wear them and perish because of their decision.

Another article.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/woman-dies-after-jet-engine-air-blast/ar-BBEkmRB?li=BBnb4R7

It stated in the paper that the area is patrolled by the police. In all of the times I have been there I never saw a patrol car and police warnings. Maybe there should be more patrols and give out heavy fines for hanging on the fence, it may save another life. For some reason, people ignore the sign and do it anyway. I am surprised the woman was in her late fifties. I would expect this of teenagers who have no fear, not an older lady. May she RIP.

If they put up a solid deflector type barrier that would angle the blast upward there would be no fence hanging, no tourists, no taxis, no traffic jams late in the afternoon because people on cruise ships would be elsewhere.

So sad for this lady's family that this happened. Even if a person doesn't try to 'ride the fence', we see REALLY stupid behavior there all the time. People literally stand in the road, walk in the road, walk on the concrete barriers, right in front of cars going past, and they are usually half lit. It makes me very nervous to drive down through there when there are a lot of people there, afraid that someone will fall right in front of our car and we will run them down. People seem to have no good sense about them.

If most people would think about it (but they don't) The health effects are not good at all from inhaling mass amounts of Jet-A exhaust. I posted a similar post on this years ago on this subject and it was removed for some reason. But It's fact...
Sure there are a lot of activities that can be risky and dangerous and you can die from instantly, but usually those things or activities do not include inhaling toxic chemicals.
So why expose yourself to this especially when most complain about health issues when someone who is smoking too close to you in a normal setting like a restaurant?

Between respiratory and DNA altering issues, Bone and Marrow altering, breathing heavy chemical particulate matter, heavier toxins such as benzene during the heating or burning of Diesel Jet Fuel Increase or almost double in some instances during its exhaust phase. I have met people that have gone almost every day of their trip because of the excitement of something we are not allowed to do at home, for many reasons. My OSHA training spent an hour on this explanation and short term or long term wasn't an issue as opposed to all of the risks associated to this activity. I guess you could call the cruise ship bus tours to that beach "The Black Lung Express"

Have I done it myself? Of course I have many times before I truly realized of what can come about from it.

Take a look:

http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/the...sues?show_all=1

Totally off-topic to this subject, as a quote from that article shows:


"If you are a frequent flier for business or pleasure, should you be worried about jet fuel exposure? People who are exposed to jet fuel vapors only occasionally typically have a chance to recover between flights. For them, problems from jet fuel are likely to be minimal. But if you work at the airport, especially if you work in close proximity to planes, or you live under a flight path, the toxic effects of jet fuel pollution should be a concern for you. Here are seven facts airfield and airport workers and people who live close (within 1 mile/2 km) of airports need to know...."

I have been there when patrols have come by and drove fence people away. I have also seen them come by and flip there lights on via the beach cam. But as soon as they are gone, people go right back to the fence. Condolences to the family that lost their loved one. RIP.

People ignore signs all the time. Signs have no way of enforcing the law or what they are intended for. We dealt with speeding cars and cars not stopping at marked crosswalks all last weekend. Unless there is actual enforcement, the sign is taken as just a suggestion.

To Bob Dot...if there could be a heavy clear barrier used as a deflector, you would still be able to see but there would be protection. Yes, it might also cut down on the number of people ($$$$$) and that is probably why it will never be implemented.

The Subject is the SXM Airport and the people who visit the beach for this activity and how injury occurred. And Carol, you say this is not related? I wasn't looking for any kind of debate really but can you honestly say or believe there isn't any risk to what I am speaking of?

Quoting the page as well:

"6. Exposure to jet exhaust is more toxic than exposure to jet fuel. The process of heating jet fuel releases an even greater variety of toxic compounds into the air."

There are many papers on this subject and its associated effect on human health, I'm not sure why this would garnish any kind of opposing argument.

The point is that we're talking about casual exposure for a few minutes, as opposed to a working environment. Working at an airport has to be one of the most high risk jobs for all kinds of work related injuries and illnesses. Still not really relevant to the topic at hand.

Ok,

Well I understand your opinion and simply disagree.
If you ever have the interest in an 80 hr class/hands-on time to go through training with a full OSHA safety certification as I have, you might have a different or more informed view.

Enjoy your day.

And, again, work safety is not what this thread is about.

I'm not referring to work hazards, that is obvious. Health hazards that cannot be denied unless you have opposing information, there is none.
Direct exposure in general, no matter the amount of time. It only takes a single inhalation for a chance of a particulate to enter your lung and fester. You don't have to be working to breathe it and you are trying to tell me that standing behind a commercial jet taking off at full throttle shooting out hundreds of chemicals and carbon at an enormous rate is safe to do for short periods... Please think about this.

Enough. Even the link you posted stated the exposure is very small in this circumstance.

My link was the fastest example to show. But what you are referring to is ambient exposure in the air, not standing behind a jet taking off, even airport employees aren't allowed to do it or be dumb enough to do it. There is no Airport in the US that allows this due to EPA/FAA.
I'm done.

So I guess it's safe to do it if you hold your breath. Then your only concerns are keeping grasp of the fence, or getting run over by drunk/distracted drivers

Well AirFrance and an AAjet just left SXM and there had to be close to 50 people on the fence. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

I think if they put up some sort of barrier the crowds (and $$$) would still come into the area for the landings alone.

For a fully dressed person flying and exchanging planes and such is fairly safe of course. However you don't see Airport/tarmac employees wearing a bikini or board shorts no shirt and flip flops, they are wearing full jumpsuits, boots and gloves.
Its shown that the blast can kill almost instantly, but what about later down the road when something arises with you that is possibly related to exposure. This was my point.

Just consider yourself for a moment, half naked in a bathing suit in the sun with a heat index of 90, and a little glistening of perspiration and lathered with another chemical (sunscreen of course) that makes anything stick to your skin and stay there.
Your pores and eyes and nasal passages and your lungs are open and susceptible to the jet wash, a steam vapor is created which forms a mist carrying chemical cocktails that can't help but stick to you also. carbon and micro debris from rubber on the tarmac come at you at break neck speed...
I guess we could always check with a Respiratory specialist or Dermatologist and ask them on the health risks, but I would want to lay bets on their response beforehand. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, sad but true. As far as stopping the practice of fence flying, I don't think it's gonna' happen - you just can't fix stupid. And it's not like you can build a fence or a wall there. This was a people draw forty years ago but I don't ever remember seeing people hanging off the fence back in the day.......not to say it didn't happen.

Do you think maybe this thread has gone far enough astray to close it down? Just MHO....... <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps an electric fence ....people would still try to do their thing. What amazes us is when a mother, father and a couple of young kids say 12 or 14 do it together. It probably generates a lot of business for doctors on island when people get sand particles etc. in their eye.

Google: "Airport blast fence", intended for this very thing. It is a money and publicity generating anomaly for the island, hence the new amount of tours from cruise port to the site. No way will it ever be corrected.

Saw a documentary a while back and it showed the jet blast rolling over a school bus.

I disagree. Many cyclists are killed and they have no training. As a matter of fact most of those killed have no training whatsoever. The same thing goes for swimmers at a beach without lifeguards. It's a tourist attraction for a reason. All thrill experiences have an element of danger otherwise it wouldn't be a thrill. And as far as scuba divers and sky divers are concerned, even with their special training, some still die. So it IS apples and apples.

Cyclists do have a certain skill level, people standing at a fence do not require any - nice try... <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Again, I have to repeat my earlier post, that after all this time, and all the people who have participated, this was the first fatality.
Not saying anything good or bad, but what other activity has less fatalities than fence grabbing at Maho?
I've been going to SXM for almost 15 years, and have never done it. Won't start now.
This tragic death will not prevent people from doing it, perhaps it is the "Can't happen to me" syndrome.

We go back 28 years and yes, this is the first to my memory but even one death is one too many. Story is on NBC news as I write this.

Story is going to be on ABC World News Tonight.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

With all of the cylinders loaded. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/hammer.gif" alt="" />

What's to correct??? These people aren't forced....nor is it an accident. These folks make a choice to do something stupid........so be it.

I am with you on this one Carol I hate driving that area anymore and the people look at you like you are in their way!

To correct would be an issue to safety due to it being close to the roadside as they do all over the world, for vehicles that need to pass let alone the ignorant that cling to the fence regardless of any sign. It's really a Govt. liability too when it comes to the concerns of tourism safety. The day that there is an engine fire or failure upon takeoff although rare but sudden, and raw fuel or fire or shrapnel shoots out and makes its way to a whole beach full of people then maybe.

I guess the signs and someone just getting killed had no impact.

Updated Article

Why cant they put the fence on the beach side? Every time we drive through there...we have to stop for people crossing the road...to hang on the fence....it makes no sense to me.

Now that makes sense to me, it really does! But the down side...if/when people still walk the road...there's no way out, then the first vehicle/pedestrian fatality it's the fence fault. I just watched a video of a young lady blown off the fence, tripped over the middle curb and hits her head on the higher beachside curb....lower the curbs "trip hazards"? first vehicle that makes it on the beach and hurts/kills someone...it's the lack of curb protection! Can the Police Dept really be expected, or afford, to put an officer at that location all day 365? It's a tricky one... put up a real barrier deflecting jet wash....the crowd would still get to see the overhead landings?! Thoughts and prayers for family involved.

I am guessing the height of the curb is to prevent traffic from crossing into the other lane and also to stop some of the sand from coming onto the road. Look at how people drive through the area, stop and look, etc. IF it were not for the height of the curbs, there would be numerous cases of vehicles hitting other vehicles. The curbs are there for a reason and you pretty much stated it.

How about the PEDESTRIANS just stay off the road?

Same picture but another update HERE.

Just saw this on one of the news channel, and it was on facebook as well... Guess this is a big thing... Can not imagine a woman of her age being that careless. I would understand younger people that are thrill seakers... Gezzz. have sat on that beach and automatically ducked when the planes came over head, but would never go near that fence... They do not have to do a thing, there is a huge warning of danger, but there will be stupid people... Feel bad for her family... Sad

The beach was basically unknown until the advent of the internet and then social media. With YouTube videos the location has become wildly popular. Where else in the would can you be that close to a live runway with big jets coming and going? Media thrives on stuff like this.

No idea why someone of any age would do what many do but throw in a little alcohol and age and common sense are no longer relevant.

The whole situation defies logic and this outcome is a horrific result. I visited the sunset bar when we first visited the island years ago. (Been there, done that moment) It was a slow day, however there were a handful of people who were holding onto the fence. My jaw dropped on the dangers. Exhaust, FOD on the runway, and the risk of being blown across a road. We can beat this one to death, but its is dangerous on so many levels. Because it was a slow day, I started chatting up with one of SBB managers. I asked if anyone had been killed and he said no..."a couple broken bones..but no deaths... He also just rolled his eyes at the idiots riding the fence. I was shocked no one had been killed over the years...

Clearly this activity needs to be discouraged. Instead of building more barriers and infrastructure that may or may not work, how about just making the fence off limits and anyone caught touching it or is caught loitering on the road subject to a hefty fine? Say $500. I am just spitballing here but its seems if you actual create a hard consequence for a potentially dumb action you will discourage more, not all, from doing something stupid.

J.D. We have always kept our distance from the area, the danger of the blast itself, the debris, the dust, and the fumes all pose health risks not to mention the aircraft itself.

Toxic compounds formed by Oxidation or burning of benzene in jet engine?
Benzene + oxygen goes to carbon dioxide and water vapor.
C6H6 + (15/2)O2 ----> 6CO2 + 3H2O
Never realized that carbon dioxide and water vapor were toxic chemicals. From an environmental chemist.

there will always be thrill seekers. And mix alcohol to the issue? That beach is right next to sunset bar. But even if there was no alcohol, there are those that like to defy risks... Again, I know kids have little fear, but this was not a kid. As we mature we gather more reality and fear. that's a good thing... This woman is dead, If she had just gotten badly hurt, she would have thought twice about ever trying that again. She did not get the second chance...

The planes are a HUGE tourist attraction and fining people would just give the island more bad publicity. And St. Maarten cops have a whole lot of things they need to do to address crime and do not have the money or resources to devote to such an operation. I think that a jet blast wall would make landing more difficult and dangerous for the airplanes, and that is obviously not something that would be a good thing. I suppose that one could make it so that there is no space to stand beside the road. That would at least be a start, I guess. Although of course more people would then just walk in the road, which is already very dangerous. I see many people, especially locals, walk by the end of the runway there all the time. At least part of the reason is because they don't want to walk in the sand on the other side. What would be nice is if there were a paved walkway on the side of the road, so that people could walk over there, out of the road but not on the sand. However, since the sand comes and goes so much there, not sure how practical that would be either. It's a conundrum. I have no more knowledge than anyone here, but I suspect the only thing they could do is to try to eliminate any space between the fence and the road in the hopes of preventing people from walking or standing there. I don't know how you do that though.

Daily Herald editorial says that police pass by there, but I've never seen any.

The Police and the Customs agents always pass there everyday.
Plus we call them to come and tow away badly parked cars. The Tow Trunk Guy from the Airport does the towing. $ 75.00 per towed car.

I agree. You can't eliminate the attraction, perhaps make it a more positive experience? ("Stand here, here and here, don't ever stand here") The Fine is just an idea, and perhaps completely unenforceable, given other priorities.

Unfortunately its easy for me to witness the potential danger and sit back at my keyboard come up with arm chair solutions.

Its sad, tragic, and thoroughly avoidable. I hope the authorities and the islands tourism leaders find a way to solve the problem.

I think a 500$ dollar fine could justify having more frequent patrolling and be a source of revenue!

...and then tourists would whine that they were being gouged by the government!!

1. Jet fuel is not benzene.
2. Fuel combustion in an engine is not complete - you don't get to equilibrium. Various decomposition intermediates and side products are produced.
From another chemist.

You can't legislate common sense. I have no sympathy for those that choose to break the rules ...... they must suffer the consequence. We don't need a whole bunch of new rules and restrictions to protect these people from themselves. I really don't care if they continue ........it's their choice.

Correct...even though MANY attempts are made to try and protect people from themselves

It was only a matter of time before another person was badly hurt. You are standing behind a rocket ship taking off. I saw one guy with a large piece of sharp glass embedded in his eye. I'm sure he lost it. He's probably doing Arrow shirt commercials now.

This is fine, correct me if you must. Give yourself a star. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />

First trip to SXM 1993. Age 41. Had to try it. Not from the fence. From the beach but directly behind jet blast. Couple seconds in my thoughts to myself were "What an effin moronic thing to do"

Sadly people ignore signs. They have seen the video and have a WTF moment and give it a try. This incident, sadly, had a tragic ending. Will it stop anyone? My guess is no.

It's part of the "GreaterFool" theory. For every incident, there is a greater fool who thinks that nothing bad can happen to them.

I have never done it, never had any interest in doing it. A friend of mine did it a couple of years ago, from the beach, and got blown into the water. No injuries, but I don't think she wanted to do it again....

Interest brief on the issue.


https://www.thedailyherald.sx/islands/67...qcppc0.facebook

Adding the following to the Danger sign might help a little: "Fine of $20,000 (U.S.) for hanging on the fence during jet take-offs."

Sorry, I think that's a ridiculous amount. The current signs do not even say it is ILLEGAL to stand there, as I'm not at all certain that it is. Perhaps the legislature could pass a law that says that it is illegal to stand there. The problem, as I said, is that particularly many local people walk along there, to get from Beacon Hill to Maho, as this is the only way to get there. The law would have to be carefully drafted to allow people to walk through there, just not stand there, and I think that would be a bit dicey in drafting.

A sign saying : EXTREME DANGER AREA !! DO NOT STAND HERE WHEN PLANES ARE ARRIVING OR LEAVING !! DEATH COULD RESULT !!

The violators will do whatever they wish anyway. Nothing more to do about it.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />

I actually have seen the police vehicles stop & move them off the fence & off the cement edge of the road. I'm not sure how often they go. As soon as they leave everybody ran back up though. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

I've been thinking about the 'get blown' t-shirts and signs at Sunset that seems to encourage this. I'm thinking about the people who think 57 years old is old. I'm thinking this is really sad but not unexpected and it's remarkable it hasn't happened before.

Actually it almost did, about four years ago, the person hit the wall but lived to tell about it thankfully.

I figured a high enough amount to deter a drunk tourist. But I see what you're saying about walking past, in that many people don't actually cling to the fence during take-off, but put themselves in line with the engine thrust. And who's to say who merely unknowingly walks past at the very moment the plane takes off versus who intentionally stops to participate in this foolish activity. It's a tricky issue, but maybe a slightly higher, solid wall, just at the end of the runway, would be better to prevent this from happening.

As I said before in this thread, I think that a solid wall would be more dangerous for the planes landing, especially if a plane landed really short, as Air France did that one time.

How about taking the public side out of the equation and put those curved deflectors on the airport side of the fence to send the exhaust upward instead of towards the beach.

They are not that high and do the trick or at least minimize the blast. If a plane lands THAT short it will kill all those on the fence anyway.

If warning signs do not deter jerks from staying away from the fence? they need do nothing.... There will always be thrill seekers, hopefully getting this out through the news media will at least put a thought in stupid people for doing this... I know for sure this was on news media in the states and on facebook... Other than that, the Island can do nothing... and have no reason too... Do at your own risk should be there... lol

The issue at that point is damaging the PLANE and those onboard, not the people on the ground.

They are in use in many airports to deflect jet exhaust from sensitive areas both environmental and structural. Just thought they might work here.

Interesting article on why the concrete barriers are even there.

https://721news.com/top-story/history-concrete-road-divider-maho-beach/

The problem with them in SXM is because the runway is so tight already and a solid barrier would leave even less margin for error.

The deflecting barrier could be made of wood which would shatter if hit by a plane and not have any more risk than the existing chain link fences.

They are actually made out of a plastic-like composite that does exactly as you suggest.and they are maybe four or so feet high...definitely not a landing issue

The ones that I have seen are MUCH taller than that. I don't see how a four foot tall wall would do any good?

Correct...it was a low off the cuff estimate...the normal height is 8 feet which is approximately the height of the present fence. The barrier itself is easily broken into fragments if it is struck.

Point being it would remove the attraction for anyone to hang on the fence AND remove the sand/object blasting issues from those on the beach and make the area a place just for watching planes land.

unfortunately there's no law against stupidity.

Why don't we just leave things the way they are and let the idiots continue. They are only hurting themselves. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thinks.gif" alt="" />

The process of natural selection works pretty well when allowed without intervention.