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Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: Will_L] #100796
06/29/2016 09:08 PM
06/29/2016 09:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
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StormJib Offline
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Will_L said:
Storm Jib..this is a conversation much like ground hog day. Everyplace you mention having direct service ...has competitive air service by multiple airlines. That is because they can be competitive and fill planes to that destination that is popular with a large segment traveling.

You know that no major airline has said they will fly this route to the BVI correct? You know there is no evidence that a very expensive flight to the BVI will cause the very wealthy to fly coach to the BVI do you not?
Perhaps the most wealthy per capita destination in the Caribbean is St Bart's. Would you list the carriers providing direct flights to St Bart's from the mainland?

Because you believe something will happen it does not mean it will. the last time you claimed it was accountants and Little Dix executives who needed this service. they wouldn't together pay for one flight in 5 years most likely.... the Rosewood executives are not flying daily to their various properties and when the big boss goes, he is going to be flying in a private aircraft. telecommuting has arrived!!

Anyway..glad it looks like wiser heads prevailed and project is shut down for the foreseeable future. Think it was a disaster in the making.


For the record it is not and never was the senior executives of the legal entities operating the properties. Today the properties of all types have very large values and even larger $$,$$$,$$$ needs for the next renovation to stay competitive.. The growing business travel requirement is for third party lawyers and financial auditors that the regulatory require to finance anything meaningful these days. Struggling MarineMax alone has numerous regulatory requirements along with highly covenanted debt that swings between $200M and $400. Simply put in this century you need direct jet service if you want reasonable finance to grow, improve, or sell your property. We no longer build our dream small inn with coral we find near the beach. Direct jet service must be found to service the private banking business, the mortgages and finance with regulatory covenants that go with that for the more expensive vacation properties, and the 21st century "discerning" visitor the BVI leadership is counting on to sustain the Islands for the coming decades.

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Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: StormJib] #100797
06/29/2016 10:11 PM
06/29/2016 10:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,037
Charlotte, NC
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NCSailor Offline
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Charlotte, NC
Quote
StormJib said:
Quote
Will_L said:
Storm Jib..this is a conversation much like ground hog day. Everyplace you mention having direct service ...has competitive air service by multiple airlines. That is because they can be competitive and fill planes to that destination that is popular with a large segment traveling.

You know that no major airline has said they will fly this route to the BVI correct? You know there is no evidence that a very expensive flight to the BVI will cause the very wealthy to fly coach to the BVI do you not?
Perhaps the most wealthy per capita destination in the Caribbean is St Bart's. Would you list the carriers providing direct flights to St Bart's from the mainland?


For the record it is not and never was the senior executives of the legal entities operating the properties. Today the properties of all types have very large values and even larger $$,$$$,$$$ needs for the next renovation to stay competitive.. The growing business travel requirement is for third party lawyers and financial auditors that the regulatory require to finance anything meaningful these days. Struggling MarineMax alone has numerous regulatory requirements along with highly covenanted debt that swings between $200M and $400. Simply put in this century you need direct jet service if you want reasonable finance to grow, improve, or sell your property. We no longer build our dream small inn with coral we find near the beach. Direct jet service must be found to service the private banking business, the mortgages and finance with regulatory covenants that go with that for the more expensive vacation properties, and the 21st century "discerning" visitor the BVI leadership is counting on to sustain the Islands for the coming decades.


Like a broken record playing the same song over and over...

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: NCSailor] #100798
06/29/2016 10:29 PM
06/29/2016 10:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,680
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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I think the issue with StormJib's vision on what is needed is that it's focusing on what a small group needs. And I'm still not sure why a financial auditor can't either fly into St Thomas or San Juan and then either take a ferry or commuter flight or even a private jet if needed. If money isn't the issue, there are plenty of other good ways to get there.

What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels.


Matt
Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: maytrix] #100799
06/29/2016 10:54 PM
06/29/2016 10:54 PM
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StormJib Offline
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maytrix said:
I think the issue with StormJib's vision on what is needed is that it's focusing on what a small group needs. And I'm still not sure why a financial auditor can't either fly into St Thomas or San Juan and then either take a ferry or commuter flight or even a private jet if needed. If money isn't the issue, there are plenty of other good ways to get there.

What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels.


Data Set #1

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/file...e_2010-2015.pdf

Data Set #2

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/files/overnight_visitors_by_accommodation_2010-2014.pdf

Data Set #3 for Lagniappe

http://www.bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/files/estimated_visitor_expenditure_2010-2015.pdf

Last edited by StormJib; 06/29/2016 10:56 PM.
Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: StormJib] #100800
06/29/2016 11:15 PM
06/29/2016 11:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,996
Macon, Georgia
GlennA Offline
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Looks like he is attempting to win by drowning us in unrelated data. Nothing in those tables contridicts the fact that hotel executives, auditors and financial wizards are only a miniscule fraction of the arrivals.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: GlennA] #100801
06/30/2016 08:39 AM
06/30/2016 08:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,528
Ya never know...
HillsideView Offline
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HillsideView  Offline
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Posts: 8,528
Ya never know...
Baffle 'em with BS. His specialty.


My foot fits right into my shoe and my shoe will fit right into your...
Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: GlennA] #100802
06/30/2016 08:50 AM
06/30/2016 08:50 AM
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Posts: 1,049
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StormJib Offline
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GlennA said:
Looks like he is attempting to win by drowning us in unrelated data. Nothing in those tables contridicts the fact that hotel executives, auditors and financial wizards are only a miniscule fraction of the arrivals.


I guess you missed the question asked?

"What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels."

I am not sure how you would measure nor have I ever read a "boat occupancy study". With those three BVI data points you can make your own determinations on the value of the boat versus the land overnight visitors.

What many seem to be missing is no airport makes money or a profit on flights. Airports are just one of the required bits of infrastructure every 21st Century market must have. The BVI is no different. Just like roads, airports are expensive you simply cannot prosper without them. If you want the villas, inns, hotels, and future boat operations to do well. You will need a path to jet service from the primary market the US East Coast.

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: StormJib] #100803
06/30/2016 08:59 AM
06/30/2016 08:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,037
Charlotte, NC
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NCSailor Offline
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Charlotte, NC
Quote
StormJib said:
Quote
GlennA said:
Looks like he is attempting to win by drowning us in unrelated data. Nothing in those tables contridicts the fact that hotel executives, auditors and financial wizards are only a miniscule fraction of the arrivals.


I guess you missed the question asked?

"What I'd really love to know is what is the occupancy rate of charter boats vs hotels."

I am not sure how you would measure nor have I ever read a "boat occupancy study". With those three BVI data points you can make your own determinations on the value of the boat versus the land overnight visitors.

What many seem to be missing is no airport makes money or a profit on flights. Airports are just one of the required bits of infrastructure every 21st Century market must have. The BVI is no different. Just like roads, airports are expensive you simply cannot prosper without them. If you want the villas, inns, hotels, and future boat operations to do well. You will need a path to jet service from the primary market the US East Coast.


Well, Ron it just ain't gonna happen so get used to it. Embrace the ferry.

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: StormJib] #100804
06/30/2016 09:01 AM
06/30/2016 09:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 826
Tortola, BVI
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LianeLeTendre Offline
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Tortola, BVI
I can't believe I am jumping back into this again ... but ...

I'd like to meet the "discerning" visitor who has no problem with constant power outages, frequent and severe water shortages, torn up, pot-holed, badly engineered and mostly unlit roads with few road signs, questionable food establishments (certainly not all but a large majority), over flowing dumpsters all over the place, trash strewn everywhere, and sub-par (disinterested) service at many establishments, shops and indeed in government.

Don't you think it is putting the cart before the horse to build an airport runway that can accommodate Boeing 737-800's and airbus A320's when the above will take a minimum of 20 years to sort out, if they start today ... and don't stop for anything. Let's be realistic here.

Our visitor market is people who really don't mind all those things as well as upwardly mobile and well-to-do sailors who don't have to deal with much of it for any length of time while aboard their yacht.

The Boeing 737-800 carries 154 passengers with three classes of seating. Only 16 are first class, 48 are "economy plus" and 90 are economy.

The A-320 seats 150 passengers or up to 189 in a high-density configuration. There are 10 first class seats in one configuration of the airbus A-320 and 16 in the other.

So exactly how many "discerning" visitors will be coming here on these flights, assuming there would be one flight maybe every other day of either type ... and how often? That is a [color:"red"]huge[/color] assumption by the way, since there is no deal with any airline at this point.

I have close friends who own a couple of apartments on the privately owned cruise ship called "The World". They come here (on The World) about once a year ... and I usually have to go to Jost Van Dyke to see them. The also have a home in Bermuda, a home in London and a cottage in Northern Ontario.

They wouldn't dream of coming here for a vacation. In fact, when the World was in Road Town several years ago, I had to beg them to come to my place. He stayed on the ship while she came with me. He wasn't even interested in getting off the darned boat! I had to go to the ship for lunch, even though I had made plans to make lunch at my place for them.

My own family considers it a chore to come here to visit because the BVI just isn't up to their standards. They were horrified by the smell of the Sargassum the last time they were here and couldn't believe it was just left sitting along the shoreline to rot. There is still no plan to deal with the sargassum.

My niece was walking with her 3 year old along the road on Frenchman's Cay coming back from having coffee at Omar's and some guy was peeing on a tree at the side of the road and didn't even bother to try to hide. She was totally disgusted. Where she comes from, people are arrested for indecent exposure for doing things like that. Here it is an every day occurrence.

A couple of months ago, they sent me a ticket to Toronto so I can go visit them and we will all go up to our mutual friend's cottage on Bone Island in Georgian Bay ... the one's who own the apartments on the World. It was their subtle way of telling me they won't be coming down next year.

So if the intent is to attract the "discerning" visitors (in any substantive way), I can tell you quite honestly that the BVI has a very long way to go before that dream becomes a reality.

Oh and by the way, my family didn't mind the flights from Toronto to St. Maarten and St. Maarten to Tortola. They much prefer St. Maarten and stayed there for 5 days after they visited me. They are always trying to talk me into going to St. Maarten for a vacation with them. For me, getting out of the Caribbean is a vacation!

I agree with Will's Ground Hog Day analogy. Sometimes we repeat ourselves (over and over again) because we feel our need to be heard has not been satisfied. I feel my need to be heard has been met and have nothing further to add to the conversation ... unless of course the conversation takes an incredibly interesting turn. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: LianeLeTendre] #100805
06/30/2016 09:27 AM
06/30/2016 09:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 76,302
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
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Central Florida!
Hey Liane--you really should try St Maarten/St. Martin sometime. You might like it!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />


Carol Hill
Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: Carol_Hill] #100806
06/30/2016 09:41 AM
06/30/2016 09:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 826
Tortola, BVI
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LianeLeTendre Offline
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Tortola, BVI
Hi Carol,

I have ... twice and I did like it, but been there, done that! You have to remember that I have lived in the BVI for a pretty long time. I need to get away from the Caribbean for it to be a real vacation for me.

I honestly can't think of a better place to visit than Northern Ontario. My family had a cottage on an island in Lake Muskoka when I was growing up and I just love the place. I love the Caribbean and the BVI too ... but the need to get away is strong when rock fever sets in. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Joy.gif" alt="" />

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: LianeLeTendre] #100807
06/30/2016 09:46 AM
06/30/2016 09:46 AM
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Posts: 1,049
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StormJib Offline
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"I'd like to meet the "discerning" visitor who has no problem with constant power outages, frequent and severe water shortages, torn up, pot-holed, badly engineered and mostly unlit roads with few road signs, questionable food establishments (certainly not all but a large majority), over flowing dumpsters all over the place, trash strewn everywhere, and sub-par (disinterested) service at many establishments, shops and indeed in government."

They are out there everyday on their yachts carrying those services with them. They are at Peter Island, Bitter End Yacht Club, they will be back at Little Dix spending more than ever in a couple of years. They will build villas at Nail Bay. And yes some show up on larger ships like The World.

Many get lost looking for simple answer to a complex ever changing market. One part of that market and in many cases the decision maker will want to arrive and depart on a FAA Part 135 private flight. Others in the group travel on different days with the rest of us. Family, friends, guests, and co-workers must be able to get in an out without the taxi, ferry, taxi, STT dance or other hassles the current mess has in place.

To answer your question discerning visitors are all around you each day. The hope is to at least keep the number visiting today and gain more repeat business from the "discerning" group ten months out of the year. I will accept many and maybe most who visit the BVI only set foot on Tortola to get in and out of the BVI Islands. The same is true with St. Thomas. Just mixing the name St. Thomas with any BVI trip damages the BVI brand.

If you read the local press this week the USVI is having their own problems with the St. John ferries.

For the record if I were Czar there would be very nice ferries at no charge taking anyone getting off a plane to suitable docks on each of the area Islands every hour until two hours after the last plane lands for the day. Bag would be checked directly to the boat and ALL C&I would be majestically done on the boat ride. A simple beautiful welcome to the BVI first and last impression.

Does my plan fix the capacity limits that have long been reached at STT? My plan ignores the reality of the tribal politics and jealousy between the two sets of Islands. US educated Pickering and a few others more than get all that. That is why they will keep working until they find a contractor willing to contract to build the airport to FAA specs. Not doing it would be the same as The Moorings going back to the 38 foot monohulls with no AC of the 70's.

With the loss of AA from EIS. Our large and growing family spreads the money around a little more. We do use private charter into EIS. Scrub makes a great base for greeting and dropping off crew. Pre 9/11 we used the fuel dock at Red Hook for that at times. We also make use of the direct flights to St. Lucia and the Mooring Base there. St. Vincent by far has the best sailing but until the airport gets open the hassle of going through Barbados is not fun. Martinique has the best food and provisioning with almost no flights from the US. My daughters have connected through Paris to meet us in Martinique. Fun once; doubt they will do it again. The BVI has the easiest sailing +9 months of the year of any of the charter options. The BVI is losing or surrendering the ease of ingress and egress the iPad generation is going to demand.

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: LianeLeTendre] #100808
06/30/2016 10:01 AM
06/30/2016 10:01 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 16,379
Tortola/ Sonoma, California
Manpot Offline
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Wow Liane had no idea I lived in such a third world dump!

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: LianeLeTendre] #100809
06/30/2016 10:17 AM
06/30/2016 10:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,147
road town
sleepychef Offline
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road town
Wow I have never read such a closeted view of people who have their heads stuck up their arses as you portray your family and friends to be. This is the BVI and if it must get to their standard before they visit I hope it never does LianeLe Tendre

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: sleepychef] #100810
06/30/2016 10:43 AM
06/30/2016 10:43 AM
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StormJib Offline
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sleepychef said:
Wow I have never read such a closeted view of people who have their heads stuck up their arses as you portray your family and friends to be. This is the BVI and if it must get to their standard before they visit I hope it never does LianeLe Tendre


That is probably not fair. I have anchored off Little Dix Bay and other shore based offerings for the day or night to join a friend at "their" resort or villa for a meal. We always offer the shore based group the opportunity to go somewhere with us on the boat. Some love the adventure and leap aboard. Others with hectic lives at home just want to relax in their place and routine. Just like the rest of us on our boats. Those ashore or on cruise ships have a schedule, plan, routine, and comfort zone.

My best spur of the moment guest. A single Mom staying on St. Thomas with two young daughters for a week. She met my then 8 year old in the dinghy with one small duffel, one half gallon Jack Daniels, and ten towels she lifted from the hotel maid's cart. She had never been on a boat before. Stayed for three days. We all had a blast.

Go to a Jamaica resort if you wonder too far off the reservation you should expect trouble. The same is true with some beaches in Mexico and the Bahamas.

Re: Airport project is delayed [Re: sleepychef] #100811
06/30/2016 10:43 AM
06/30/2016 10:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 76,302
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
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Carol_Hill  Offline
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Posts: 76,302
Central Florida!
Alrighty then. I think this one is done.


Carol Hill
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