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Be Careful Out There! #198900
06/30/2019 03:10 PM
06/30/2019 03:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,275
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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Boat Collision today. New Moorings 50 heavily damaged but towed in.
G

Attached Files 34F5BB1F-A848-4C14-912A-036EE2E3E4CD.jpeg287F590D-267C-468F-B8F0-074269FE9AEA.jpeg672F7336-4664-4147-A5E9-7945F91CB8AD.jpeg
Last edited by GeorgeC1; 06/30/2019 03:23 PM.
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Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198901
06/30/2019 03:38 PM
06/30/2019 03:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 294
Kannapolis, NC
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wow

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198902
06/30/2019 03:41 PM
06/30/2019 03:41 PM
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Posts: 375
Washington DC
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bailau Online content
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Collision with that power cat standing by? looks like a 51...glad nobody hurt

A rough week for Moorings

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198903
06/30/2019 03:49 PM
06/30/2019 03:49 PM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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First reports are it was a collision with a Voyage Cat. If true looks like the Voyage cat won!

Last edited by GeorgeC1; 06/30/2019 03:49 PM.
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198904
06/30/2019 04:57 PM
06/30/2019 04:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
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VI,NY,AZ
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The Voyage cats are supposedly built stronger.
Any news where the collision occurred?

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198905
06/30/2019 05:32 PM
06/30/2019 05:32 PM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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I am not sure they are stronger, they are certainly not heavier. Usually the boat that is doing the hitting bow first comes out just fine. I saw the results of a Cat collision years ago and the boat that was hit turtled with the hull flooded and the boat that hit them bow first suffered almost no damage. Being the boat hitting bow first does not however mean you are at fault depending on the circumstances. This will be a insurance mess I suspect.
G

Last edited by GeorgeC1; 06/30/2019 05:34 PM.
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198907
06/30/2019 05:41 PM
06/30/2019 05:41 PM
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An island state of mind
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An island state of mind
So, how does that happen?

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198908
06/30/2019 06:01 PM
06/30/2019 06:01 PM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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Beer and rum, lots of beer and rum!

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198909
06/30/2019 06:12 PM
06/30/2019 06:12 PM
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An island state of mind
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I was being facetious, but what a bunch of retards.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198911
06/30/2019 08:04 PM
06/30/2019 08:04 PM
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The BVI News article states it happened near Baughers Bay on Tortola. There is no mention yet of a collision in the article.

https://bvinews.com/moorings-vessel...5y2i1ED_JIKGEIMyZRKVVtQ0ZwZTz1sgGeQ-dyZo

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198912
06/30/2019 08:17 PM
06/30/2019 08:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
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VI,NY,AZ
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Originally Posted by GeorgeC1
Beer and rum, lots of beer and rum!

Beer and Rum is what’s used when the prosecutor and the judge sit down to determine who the guilty party is. It’s a tradition.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198917
06/30/2019 09:22 PM
06/30/2019 09:22 PM
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Posts: 838
JAX
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Wow indeed. Could it have been grounding?
Rigging looks ok, no sign of topside damage.
Anyone recognize those channel markers? Could be entering or leaving Moorings Base, and got distracted or off course.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198918
06/30/2019 09:39 PM
06/30/2019 09:39 PM
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How can two 50 footers collide in broad daylight, sunny conditions, 14 kts wind, relatively flat seas, and apparantly just a few hundred yards from the Moorings base? There're no FCFS mooring balls to be racing to!

3rd photo shows a Voyage cat nearby with its mainsail partially lowered.

Not to speculate, but I can picture the Moorings cat just departing the base midday as it starts a weeklong charter, while the Voyage cat is tacking up the SFD and comes into Baughers Bay on starboard tack with visibility partially obscured by the genoa. The Moorings boat is idling forward as it starts to raise its mainsail - the crew is all looking up at the lazy jacks and battens and no is scanning for boats as it gets into the Voyage cat skipper's blind zone (and who has no one posted on his portside as lookout). Boom!

Hope the lessons-learned from the accident report get shared.

I feel very bad for the owners (if they were not onboard) as they will be stuck with a lot of the costs.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198919
06/30/2019 10:29 PM
06/30/2019 10:29 PM
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Somewhere out there
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Running charters for 20+ years I was in potential collision situations more than I care to admit. Fortunately only once would have been my fault, but very scary, a dive boat in open water 10 miles offshore anchored in my blind spot where I would never have guessed a boat to be. I would always tell the guests during my briefing, even though I am the Capt I am not infallible and if you see something like another boat approaching too close, I have no issues with you mentioning it and I would prefer you would. I would say of my near collisions, about 40% were a result of no one at the helm (not just bareboat, but professional crewed boats), I would make sure I scared the crap out them them by passing close astern and doubted they made that mistake again.


Mike
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198921
07/01/2019 06:58 AM
07/01/2019 06:58 AM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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I have to agree with the above. Under sail its often hard to see in some directions especially with the now popular elevated helm stations. I once also noted truly bizarre behavior in the SFD where no one was manning the helm station of a large cat motoring. We were under sail and had to alter course to avoid a collision. We passed close astern to see the entire crew having a nice lunch! They seemed upset by the arm motions as we passed so close behind!
Oe thing I do as a courtesy is when on or near a potential collision course and the other boat has the right away I make a definitive move at a reasonable distance so the other boat is aware I have seen them and recognize they have the right of way. Usually I make a 20 degree course change. Very slight changes don’t let the other vessel know they have been seen.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: BaardJ] #198922
07/01/2019 07:05 AM
07/01/2019 07:05 AM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BaardJ
How can two 50 footers collide in broad daylight, sunny conditions, 14 kts wind, relatively flat seas, and apparantly just a few hundred yards from the Moorings base? There're no FCFS mooring balls to be racing to!

3rd photo shows a Voyage cat nearby with its mainsail partially lowered.

Not to speculate, but I can picture the Moorings cat just departing the base midday as it starts a weeklong charter, while the Voyage cat is tacking up the SFD and comes into Baughers Bay on starboard tack with visibility partially obscured by the genoa. The Moorings boat is idling forward as it starts to raise its mainsail - the crew is all looking up at the lazy jacks and battens and no is scanning for boats as it gets into the Voyage cat skipper's blind zone (and who has no one posted on his portside as lookout). Boom!

Hope the lessons-learned from the accident report get shared.

I feel very bad for the owners (if they were not onboard) as they will be stuck with a lot of the costs.


Since the boat was a Moorings boat the owners should be fine. They will receive 100% of the value of the purchase price since the boat is under 1 year old. If repairable they will be fully paid every month during repairs. I suspect the boat will be repaired because they practically have a Leapard factory set up next to the Moorings still fixing IRMA boats.

Last edited by GeorgeC1; 07/01/2019 07:06 AM.
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198925
07/01/2019 07:55 AM
07/01/2019 07:55 AM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,109
Toledo, OH, USA
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It looks like BVI News took the article down. Says it is no longer available.


Colleen


[Linked Image]


Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: Orange_Burst] #198927
07/01/2019 08:45 AM
07/01/2019 08:45 AM
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Posts: 1,338
Maryland
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Originally Posted by Orange_Burst
It looks like BVI News took the article down. Says it is no longer available.

It was interesting how the headline said it was now a confirmed collision and the link went dead.


Kirk in Maryland
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198937
07/01/2019 11:32 AM
07/01/2019 11:32 AM
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Washington DC
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Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198941
07/01/2019 11:57 AM
07/01/2019 11:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 675
Middleburg, VA
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Boating Rule number 1 is to always avoid a collision.
If a collision occurs the Nav. Rules were not observed.
The Coast Guard and Admiralty Court take the position that there are no accidents.
A watch (lookout) is required anytime that a vessel is under way.

Opposite of NO FAULT... Both Captains at fault!


Chuck W.
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Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198984
07/01/2019 08:10 PM
07/01/2019 08:10 PM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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Looks like it was center-punched.
G

Attached Files 901C0F5B-11DC-4407-9224-69CEFE37BF11.jpeg5257B07B-CC67-4931-9876-634AC4E8AB59.jpeg
Last edited by GeorgeC1; 07/01/2019 08:11 PM.
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198986
07/01/2019 08:27 PM
07/01/2019 08:27 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 838
JAX
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George, you have very good sources!

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198993
07/01/2019 10:18 PM
07/01/2019 10:18 PM
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Posts: 3,190
Somewhere out there
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George you are correct in the Regs it says something like, make an obvious course change to show your intentions.


Mike
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198997
07/02/2019 03:44 AM
07/02/2019 03:44 AM
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Posts: 200
Dana Point
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Yep, I believe the regs say, early and ample change of course to show your intentions and avoid collision . Right of way or not...Avoid a Collision.

Of course, that takes a skipper at the helm and crew on watch. And a helms person who is willing to make a course change . Even to punch a button on their auto pilot .

With the super equipped electronic wonders, auto pilots and GPS, etc. and party time underway.....good chance of .no watch standing ..


Usually catamarans have an entire crew or compliment of 6 to 8 to more people on board....how is that no one is on watch ?.

The fortunate thing is that no one was injured or killed .

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #198999
07/02/2019 04:17 AM
07/02/2019 04:17 AM
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Scary just how poor the construction is. But then...if they were built properly they'd cost too much to charter out at the low prices we all enjoy...and to muppets who don't know what they're doing. And of course it would have taken many years to replace the fleets after Irma/Maria.

Swings and roundabouts...

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199003
07/02/2019 05:12 AM
07/02/2019 05:12 AM
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Hillsborough, NC
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Eric Forsyth, one of the world's most experienced sailors, always says to make a course change of at least 20 degrees when there is any question about a potential collision. His reasoning is that if a course change is needed - make a course change that is significant and clearly communicates your intentions to the other captain. Forsyth has probably put as many ocean miles to his stern as any sailor in the world on his or her personal boat. His sailboat is Fiona, a Westsail 42.

When sailing I give my new crew members a very brief lecture about collisions at sea, tell them about Forsyth and his advice, and emphasize the 20 degree rule (so long as there is enough room for that course change without creating another potential collision). Before my first blue-water passage the captain told me to read the book, "Ten Degrees of Reckoning". Anyone undertaking an ocean passage with inexperienced or moderately experienced crew should make the book required reading. It also helps one understand the wisdom in Forsyth's advice.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: Christo] #199028
07/02/2019 09:43 AM
07/02/2019 09:43 AM
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GeorgeC1 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Christo
Scary just how poor the construction is. But then...if they were built properly they'd cost too much to charter out at the low prices we all enjoy...and to muppet who don't know what they're doing. And of course it would have taken many years to replace the fleets after Irma/Maria.

Swings and roundabouts...


The Leopards are built like tanks relative to many cats. That is why structurally they hold up well in charter but are not that fast. Basically that boat got hit by 28,000 lbs doing probably 7 knots with all the force concentrated into about a 1 to 2 square foot cleaver. I am not sure even ¼ steel plate would have held up. Take a look some time at the pics of the Andrea Dora collision. Same principle.
G

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199029
07/02/2019 09:46 AM
07/02/2019 09:46 AM
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The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (COLREGs) are quite clear:

Quote

Rule 8 (Action to avoid a collision)
(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.

(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.


(text in Bold highlighted by me)

a 10 degree change when approaching head on is easier to see than a 20 degree course change when approaching at an oblique angle.

Since neither vessel was constrained by draft (chuckle - they are catamarans...) then ultimately both captains are at fault, although one boat will be most likely be significantly more responsible than the other, which didn't apply Rule 8 in a timely manner.

Last edited by Zanshin; 07/02/2019 09:47 AM. Reason: changed "skipper" to "captain"
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199038
07/02/2019 11:05 AM
07/02/2019 11:05 AM
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I dont think "constrained by draft" would be the only arbiter here...the rules surrounding Rule 8 might come into play as well or an example of an overtaking situation or one vessel under power...i would be surprised in open sea during daylight (assuming that is the case) if either had the proper lookout stationed mandated by another COLREG.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199039
07/02/2019 11:10 AM
07/02/2019 11:10 AM
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I have heard via rumor the Moorings boat was stationary raising the main. Not sure if true or how that plays into right of way.
G

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199048
07/02/2019 12:15 PM
07/02/2019 12:15 PM
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Massachusetts
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That might make them less at fault, but even when raising the main they should be aware of what is around them and coming towards them. And I've never raised the main with the engine off so maneuvering out of the way should be possible and be able to be done quickly.


Matt
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199049
07/02/2019 12:34 PM
07/02/2019 12:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 263
Redmond, WA
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I think in these situations we are interested in the details not out of idle curiosity, but we're looking for reasons why this couldn't/wouldn't happen to us, or at least learn from what went wrong.

One possible takeaway is to forego demonstrating one's dedication to being a super avid sailor by raising or dousing sails near a congested area such as the Road Town Harbor entrance. Still just speculation of course.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199056
07/02/2019 01:18 PM
07/02/2019 01:18 PM
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An island state of mind
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Why would they be raising their main if they were supposedly headed back to the base?

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: MrEZgoin] #199057
07/02/2019 01:32 PM
07/02/2019 01:32 PM
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VI,NY,AZ
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Maybe they were shaking out the reefs for the next charterers, otherwise the ground crew has to do it.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199065
07/02/2019 03:38 PM
07/02/2019 03:38 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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I don't see how a boat could be stationary while raising its main. Would some need steerage. Even if only a knot or two. Likely no lookout while raising main due to focus on lazy Jacks and battens.


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Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199070
07/02/2019 05:39 PM
07/02/2019 05:39 PM
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Mebane, NC
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I love all the discussion re: this tragedy. But I too would like to know the circumstances. This is something we can all learn from. But also I'm curious as to how in the hell could this happen? I agree that someone should have been looking out and there is always some steerage even when raising sails.
My experience in the BVI's is that its not that crowded that 2 vessels should not collide.

But having said that, I was on watch on a run from STT to Annapolis and at 2 am in the morning, I saw a blip on the radar. And for the next 2 hours I watched as the ship approached and then passed within a few hundred yards of me. Was just a reminder that you always have to be on guard.

Semper Fi

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199081
07/02/2019 07:07 PM
07/02/2019 07:07 PM
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Apex, NC
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Lots of people with poor understanding of the rules of the road plus poor judgement. Last week we were sailing on a starboard track out in the channel and had a Saba 50 nearly run us down on an intersect on a port track. I was keeping a close eye on him and certainly would have yielded if necessary. The Saba eventually yielded. The captain was very angry with us and screamed we needed to learn the rules of the road.


Life's short - sail more!
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199092
07/02/2019 08:55 PM
07/02/2019 08:55 PM
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I have to admit that I use different COLREGs in the BVI: If it has "Moorings" or "Sunsail" visible then it is always the stand-on vessel. If it has a different hull color, or has a wind-generator then normal COLREGs apply.

Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199094
07/02/2019 09:33 PM
07/02/2019 09:33 PM
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Macon, Georgia
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Not a question of which boat was stronger. It was a T-bone collision and the T-bonor usually comes out far better than the T-bonee


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
Re: Be Careful Out There! [Re: GeorgeC1] #199237
07/04/2019 02:25 PM
07/04/2019 02:25 PM
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I couldn't count the amount of times in the BVI that we have had to alter course because another boat clearly had no F###### idea about col-regs!

...given that our professional racing days are behind us, we of course...just give way to the muppets and carry on with our day.

It's great that idiots, morons and fools get to experience the beauty of the islands on ikea-boats these days...and great for the coffers of KKR, but of course the occasional sinking...or maybe drowning is the cost of it.




Last edited by Christo; 07/04/2019 02:29 PM.
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