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Reflections on Club O #233536
09/01/2020 11:17 AM
09/01/2020 11:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 166
New Hampshire
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Hdrdr911 Offline OP
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Having a rare day off today I've been taking some time to reflect on our many great times at Orient and Club O. Irma was devastating for the Island and it's residents. The effects are still being felt today. Then comes Covid-19 and it's pretty clear the world is in constant turmoil with how to deal with this pandemic. It seems to me we have seen the best of the island and in particular, Club O. The legal wrangling going on with regard to the Clubs future seems endless and is disheartening to say the least. No positive outcome seems likley, certainly not in the immediate future. We will always cherish our time on the island but I fear those days are past. We will return once it is safe and reasonable to do so but with very different expectations. In the meantime other adventures and experiences are in the offing and we are blessed to have made great friends during our time in St Martin who we will share those experience with.
Cheers


If the phone doesn't ring .... it's me
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Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233544
09/01/2020 12:15 PM
09/01/2020 12:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,885
Royersford, PA (30m NW of Phil...
Biturbo Offline
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Royersford, PA (30m NW of Phil...
We echo those sentiments. After spending many afternoons on their beach, we finally decided to try staying there and became hooked. We'll keep our fingers crossed.


"In a yellow El Camino, listening to Howlin' Wolf" - Lucinda
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233551
09/01/2020 01:14 PM
09/01/2020 01:14 PM
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jenniboston Online content
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I don't have anything I can share at this time other than the Owners haven't given up. I continue to be cautiously optimistic about the eventual resurrection of Club O.

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: jenniboston] #233552
09/01/2020 01:22 PM
09/01/2020 01:22 PM
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Central Florida!
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Jenni--best wishes to them. I truly hope they are able to rebuild at some point..


Carol Hill
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: jenniboston] #233569
09/01/2020 03:03 PM
09/01/2020 03:03 PM
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PelicanPirate Offline
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What’s Club O? Hoping that sarcasm/reverse psychology might wake up some owner/reader to compromise. We still plan a Nude Year’s Eve pilgrimage to the yellow umbrella Mecca, but they are working hard to allow time to fade memories and allow alternatives to supplant near permanent migrations for some. What may have been salvageable is utter rubbish now, so any rebuild wouldn’t be a 6 month thing.

Perhaps a permanent tent on platform campground like St John’s Cinnamon Bay with air conditioners and a pavilion for meals and dances could be rapid to get cash flow.

Rebuild permanent utilities, chalets/stuff over time

https://cinnamonbayresort.com/

Please settle your differences people.

In looks like no one wins right now, lose/lose/lose

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233643
09/02/2020 03:49 PM
09/02/2020 03:49 PM
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JDK_Ontario Offline
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PelicanPirate (if that is your real name), thanks for your suggestions. Now that you mention it, of course we will compromise and build your new Club O right away. </sarcasm> How often did you stay at Club O? (rhetorical)

Have you done much reading about the issues on Saint-Martin right now? It would be really nice if people would follow the news rather than just listening to rumours.

Regardless of the number of posts from non-owners, the owners are not having petty squabbles. Even if we were, that's not why the resort has not been rebuilt and it is simply propagating lies to say it is. I know I speak for many owners (since they've asked me to) when I say that as an owner who has volunteered many hundreds of hours working on all the issues it is frustrating when we see posts that imply or say outright that the cause of the delays is infighting. That isn't the case at all. We are not all one big happy family but we are able to talk to each other civilly most of the time (which is more than some families can say).

Are you aware that the PPRN stopped a lot of rebuilding in coastal areas, including Club Orient? Are you aware that the PPRN was the root cause of the roadblocks and general civil unrest on Saint-Martin (spearheaded by Cedrick Andre, among others)? Most of Sandy Ground (Cedrick's home area) was not allowed to rebuild because of the PPRN and that also restricted Club Orient owners from rebuilding. The civil unrest cause France to rethink the application of the PPRN on Saint-Martin and we hope there will be changes this fall that will allow us to obtain a rebuilding permit.

There are many complex issues to be solved, including getting a rebuilding permit (which wasn't possible because of the PPRN but may be possible if the revised version is accepted this fall).

The issues seem to be shifting like sand under our feet much of the time and none of them are caused by infighting or lack of willingness to compromise or (as one post said) sitting around on our asses. Ok, I admit that we are sitting on our asses most of the time when we are on the weekly or bi-weekly Zoom calls we've been having since September 2017 but that doesn't mean we aren't also still working hard to get the resort back and functioning.

Also, it's good that you recognize that this isn't a "6m thing". I suspect that you have never been involved in a building project, let alone a rebuilding project, which is always more complicated. From application to approval is usually a 5-6m process, BTW. Even once we have a rebuilding permit we will still have to contract with construction companies to get the work done and there is a short supply of those on the island and supplies are in short supply. That isn't even considering COVID-19 or don't you believe in that either?

When we have plans that we are ready to communicated, we will. First to all the owners and only then to the public on our website.

from Ontario, Canada

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233649
09/02/2020 04:48 PM
09/02/2020 04:48 PM
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Posts: 31
New Fairfield, CT
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Tonythepilot Offline
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Was this not a permit?

Attached Files IMG_0462.jpeg
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233653
09/02/2020 05:06 PM
09/02/2020 05:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
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jenniboston Online content
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clapping clapping clapping

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233662
09/02/2020 06:37 PM
09/02/2020 06:37 PM
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PelicanPirate Offline
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Awesome, hit a nerve and got some silence broken. Stayed many times in lat decade including twice in 2017. Looked i to buying and the people said be prepared to lose all your money. Good advice

Infighting, weve heard much of the infighting from those they called dissidents.

But i guess that is solved now. We had heard the insurance company didnt want to cut checks to an “unresolved situation”. Are they ready to release funds? We had heard in the Steven Payne days they had plans. Then the PPRN did hit and clearly Sandy Ground was an issue and logical Club O might be but never really heardso, Did the PPRN say no rebuilding or had to be built to a higher standard? The PPRN thing was wanting to buy people out in Sandy Ground and the peeps said no. Did they want to buy Clob O owners out to go away?

As a non-owner, i am dependent on info. Inquiring minds the world over are thirsting for status/progress.

And I am right I think that some have moved on and found a replacement while the difficulties continue.

So to summarize:
1) no infighting means the insurance company has a healthy group to dispurse funds
2) the healthy group can have architects design plans
3) plans can be presented to authorities for approval/rejection
4) the pprn can require drastic building code requirements
5) the healthy griup can comply with new designs
6) the pprn could prohibit rebuilding and healthy griup take a pprn settlement and no club o resort

Glad to hear no infighting- that is progress. Looking forward to more i fo as it unfolds


Oh and it is my real name. Momma was a pelican and daddy was a pirate 🏴‍☠️ 🦜

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233668
09/02/2020 06:43 PM
09/02/2020 06:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,954
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sxmmartini Offline
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PPRN was annulled and the new revision will take place in 2021. I don’t know if that is good for owners to get approved permits or not? Very confusing...

Last edited by sxmmartini; 09/02/2020 08:12 PM. Reason: Link to update below
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Tonythepilot] #233670
09/02/2020 06:52 PM
09/02/2020 06:52 PM
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JDK_Ontario Offline
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Tonythepilot, correct. This was not a building permit. It was issued under emergency conditions as part of the DPI. You can see that the Permit Number field is crossed out and DP written in.

To clarify, under the terms of the new version of the PPRN, if they are incorporated as expected, only REbuilding will be allowed. That is, buildings that existed prior to Irma will be allowed to be rebuilt and they can be rebuilt with modifications that will allow them to meet the requirements of the PPRN. For example, the wooden units at Club Orient would be rebuilt in concrete. For residences in Sandy Ground it may mean that people who would not otherwise be allowed to rebuild should be allowed to do so. The government recognizes that it is important to allow people to rebuild their homes but will require them to be safer and also recognizes the need for resorts such as Club Orient.

Sources for information
Prefet for St. Barts and Saint-Martin -- http://www.saint-barth-saint-martin.gouv.fr/
Collectivité: http://www.com-saint-martin.fr/
Announcement in July 2020 about the cancellation of the PPRN implemented in advance in 2019: http://www.com-saint-martin.fr/La-COM-obtient-du-Tribunal-administratif-de-Paris-l-annulation-du-PPRN-pris-par-anticipation-le-6-ao%C3%83%C2%BBt-2019-par-la-Pr%C3%83%C2%A9fecture-de-Saint-Barth%C3%83%C2%A9lemy-et-Saint-Martin!_Saint-Martin-Antilles_2136.html

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233677
09/02/2020 07:51 PM
09/02/2020 07:51 PM
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sxmmartini Offline
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Here is a more recent link in French... use google translate if you don’t speak French.

https://www.stmartinweek.fr/2020/08/04/urbanisme-•-le-tribunal-administratif-de-saint-martin-casse-larrete-portant-par-anticipation-de-la-revision-du-plan-de-prevention-des-risques-naturels/80541


Live your life the way you meant to live it!
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: PelicanPirate] #233706
09/03/2020 10:51 AM
09/03/2020 10:51 AM
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JDK_Ontario Offline
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See inline below. You leap to a lot of conclusions and include information that is not factual and not true.

[/quote]
Originally Posted by PelicanPirate
Awesome, hit a nerve and got some silence broken. Stayed many times in lat decade including twice in 2017. Looked i to buying and the people said be prepared to lose all your money. Good advice

Infighting, weve heard much of the infighting from those they called dissidents.
JDK==> To clarify, the "dissidents" were owners who did not want to sign a Management Rental Agreement with the Hotel Operator (OBC, run by Steven Payne). That was within their rights. They also objected to paying all their Copro dues because they felt that a portion of the dues was actually supporting the hotel, which they didn't want. Also reasonable. OBC no longer exists. Some of the law suits arising from this are still in the courts because anyone who has ever tried to take anything to court knows it takes a long time to have a resolution.

But i guess that is solved now. We had heard the insurance company didnt want to cut checks to an “unresolved situation”. Are they ready to release funds? We had heard in the Steven Payne days they had plans. Then the PPRN did hit and clearly Sandy Ground was an issue and logical Club O might be but never really heardso, Did the PPRN say no rebuilding or had to be built to a higher standard? The PPRN thing was wanting to buy people out in Sandy Ground and the peeps said no. Did they want to buy Clob O owners out to go away?

JDK==> 1. The PPRN was never about "wanting to buy out people in Sandy Ground". It is a Risk Prevention Plan for all of France. People on the island speculated that it was so people could "steal" their valuable coastal properties but that was speculation fueled by fear. 2. There can be no "buy-out" of Club O owners. It is a condominium association and there would have to be unanimous agreement, which would be really unlikely. Also, the PPRN is a legal instrument not a group.

As a non-owner, i am dependent on info. Inquiring minds the world over are thirsting for status/progress.
JDK==> Inquiring minds should look more to the official sites, rely less on gossip and rumours, stop spreading them, and stop jumping to erroneous conclusions.

And I am right I think that some have moved on and found a replacement while the difficulties continue.

So to summarize:
1) no infighting means the insurance company has a healthy group to dispurse funds
2) the healthy group can have architects design plans
3) plans can be presented to authorities for approval/rejection
4) the pprn can require drastic building code requirements
5) the healthy griup can comply with new designs
6) the pprn could prohibit rebuilding and healthy griup take a pprn settlement and no club o resort

JDK==> Your summary not mine and the typos make it hard to process. An Architect is required by French Law for all building projects. The PPRN doesn't set the building requirements, the building department does, based on other requirements in the PPRN. There is no "PPRN settlement" as far as I am aware but I'm neither French nor a lawyer (and even those conditions may not be sufficient to provide an answer). I think a lawyer would say we would have to sue to get a settlement if that was what was required but that's not the road we're going down right now. Our current road leads to rebuilding.

Glad to hear no infighting- that is progress. Looking forward to more i fo as it unfolds


Oh and it is my real name. Momma was a pelican and daddy was a pirate 🏴‍☠️ 🦜

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233713
09/03/2020 11:13 AM
09/03/2020 11:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
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Massachusetts
320sycamore Offline
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Thank you for the information.

Last edited by 320sycamore; 09/03/2020 11:14 AM.
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233722
09/03/2020 11:58 AM
09/03/2020 11:58 AM
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JDK_Ontario - I want to thank you for providing this info to all of us that are curious for updates. The mere fact that you are providing information now is encouraging!!! Thank you!

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233730
09/03/2020 12:29 PM
09/03/2020 12:29 PM
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sxmmartini Offline
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The PPRN was thrown out in court and no longer exist. The PPRN would have set building requirements but it has been annulled and no longer exist until a new PPRN is created in 2021 and passed! So Club Orient has no excuses anymore to leave a complete ruin of prime property in the state it is in. It is an eyesore and is dangerous to visit.


Live your life the way you meant to live it!
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233731
09/03/2020 12:44 PM
09/03/2020 12:44 PM
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Posts: 166
New Hampshire
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Hdrdr911 Offline OP
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JDK
Grateful for your imput. Curious what do you see as the most difficult obstacle to rebuilding? Do you see a path to rebuilding the Club as most of us knew it or is there now a different vision ? I realize these questions are a bit simplistic for what Im sure is a complex situation.
Cheers.


If the phone doesn't ring .... it's me
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233734
09/03/2020 12:51 PM
09/03/2020 12:51 PM
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Posts: 72,913
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
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JDK--Interesting. I have no first hand information, but did hear several things from a good friend (not an owner), who has subsequently passed away. My impression was that the owners had all signed the management agreement when they bought into the resort? The actual workings of the thing were a mystery to those of use who didn't own there, and facts were in short supply. My impression was that the 'dissident' owners didn't want to continue to comply with the contract they had signed. That many of them basically wanted to just live in their units full time, while refusing to pay anything for maintenance of the property. There were definitely problems among the owners going on before Irma. After Irma, the problem became the insurance company was afraid to pay out proceeds to any group because the owner's group was in disarray and they didn't want to get sued for paying out to someone and then someone else claiming that they paid out to the wrong people. With no insurance money to rebuild, it didn't matter what the PPRN said, because they couldn't rebuild without any money. Has the insurance company now paid out the claim?? If so, that is wonderful news!


Carol Hill
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233750
09/03/2020 04:34 PM
09/03/2020 04:34 PM
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Live your life the way you meant to live it!
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Carol_Hill] #233757
09/03/2020 05:01 PM
09/03/2020 05:01 PM
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JDK_Ontario Offline
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Originally Posted by Carol_Hill
JDK--Interesting. I have no first hand information, but did hear several things from a good friend (not an owner), who has subsequently passed away.

JDK==> Carol, I'm sorry for your loss of a good friend.

Since your good friend was NOT AN OWNER anything s/he said is also based on rumour. I'm sure that you have heard of or played the "telephone" game where each time a piece of information is passed on the sender adds or subtracts a bit of information, using their own biases. As an owner, I've tried to correct some of those impressions in my earlier answers in this thread. You can help by not passing on or speculating on anything that you don't know firsthand or where you can accurately quote informed sources.


My impression was that the owners had all signed the management agreement when they bought into the resort? The actual workings of the thing were a mystery to those of use who didn't own there, and facts were in short supply.
My impression was that the 'dissident' owners didn't want to continue to comply with the contract they had signed. That many of them basically wanted to just live in their units full time, while refusing to pay anything for maintenance of the property. There were definitely problems among the owners going on before Irma. After Irma, the problem became the insurance company was afraid to pay out proceeds to any group because the owner's group was in disarray and they didn't want to get sued for paying out to someone and then someone else claiming that they paid out to the wrong people. With no insurance money to rebuild, it didn't matter what the PPRN said, because they couldn't rebuild without any money. Has the insurance company now paid out the claim?? If so, that is wonderful news!


JDK==> As you may have found when you have made an insurance claim, the proceeds rarely cover the full extent of the loss. In this case, the loss is grevious, more than simply monetary as you and others know. As I have said, and will continue to say, the situation is complex and the PPRN is one of the key issues that must be solved to move ahead. Money can always be raised if required.

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: JDK_Ontario] #233760
09/03/2020 05:21 PM
09/03/2020 05:21 PM
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sxmmartini Offline
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The insurance pay out was 5 million euros and the amount to rebuild is 15 million! I hope everyone of the owners is willing to open up their wallets to make up for the difference. The under insurance of the property and rebuild was risky by it’s self.
It will take an estimate of two years to rebuild and many loyal guests have found other rentals in the Orient Beach area that have very nice accommodations and swimming pools. Good Luck!


Live your life the way you meant to live it!
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233766
09/03/2020 07:02 PM
09/03/2020 07:02 PM
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Posts: 72,913
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
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JDK--Sorry, my source did not involve rumors. The person had a very deep relationship with Club O. I really do not see any specific information that you have provided here..

My question remains--HAS the insurance money been paid out??


Carol Hill
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Carol_Hill] #233869
09/05/2020 02:31 PM
09/05/2020 02:31 PM
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I need to apologize for my rude comments. I stayed at Club Orient resort from 1983 to 1989 and really have great memories. I hate seeing the ruins when even visiting the Club O beach and Perch Lite. I was able to rebuild after Hurricane Irma and Hurricane Luis. I knew my HOA did not want to see a villa in ruins and neither did I. Sorry we lost a very nice owner that was willing to share information with us but clammed up!


Live your life the way you meant to live it!
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Carol_Hill] #233952
09/07/2020 10:18 AM
09/07/2020 10:18 AM
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stangied Offline
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Thanks JDK, I see a lot of good information you have posted. At least it’s not second hand.

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: stangied] #233972
09/07/2020 02:14 PM
09/07/2020 02:14 PM
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PelicanPirate Offline
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Yes. Thanks JDK. Some news and movement. The world needs Club O alive imho

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: PelicanPirate] #233974
09/07/2020 02:20 PM
09/07/2020 02:20 PM
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Auburn, WA
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Didn't know it was that important to the "world". LOL

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: SXMScubaman] #233980
09/07/2020 03:42 PM
09/07/2020 03:42 PM
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stangied Offline
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Pretty sure not important to the whole world or you Scubaman, but important to those of us that stayed there for many, many years and that loved the place. LOL

Last edited by stangied; 09/07/2020 03:44 PM.
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: SXMScubaman] #233989
09/07/2020 07:03 PM
09/07/2020 07:03 PM
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Posts: 166
New Hampshire
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Hdrdr911 Offline OP
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We all know your " views" on Orient beach ad nauseam Mr Scubaman. Frankly those of us who do enjoy the naturalist experience available there could care less about your opinion of our choices. Give it a rest.


If the phone doesn't ring .... it's me
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #233993
09/07/2020 08:39 PM
09/07/2020 08:39 PM
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Auburn, WA
SXMScubaman Offline
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Orient is one of the beaches i frequent every trip. To each their own if you go with or without full clothing. Could care less .

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: Hdrdr911] #234007
09/08/2020 07:15 AM
09/08/2020 07:15 AM
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sxmmartini Offline
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Club Orient back in the day was awesome!


Live your life the way you meant to live it!
Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: SXMScubaman] #234060
09/08/2020 09:41 PM
09/08/2020 09:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,987
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PelicanPirate Offline
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PelicanPirate  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,987
Important to a great deal who have partaked. For those that do, have not found a better place to do so. Only Half Moon Cay compares as second place on a BN nude cruise.

So in the nudist world It matters and it has introduced many, many people to swimming sans bathing costume.

I have to say it is the best place on the planet for a steady breeze under a sturdy umbrella with a beautiful view and soft sand. Add a Carib and no sovgy swimsuit And cant think of a better alternative.

Re: Reflections on Club O [Re: PelicanPirate] #234070
09/09/2020 08:40 AM
09/09/2020 08:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 108
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stangied Offline
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stangied  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 108
Right on Pelican Pirate. We have met so many wonderful people since 2001. They are all still good friends.
We get together with three different groups here in the states at different locations each year. Nothing like Orient Beach friends.


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