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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: steleehin]
#107241
09/10/2016 07:27 AM
09/10/2016 07:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,277 Saint Thomas, USVI
CaptainJay
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,277
Saint Thomas, USVI
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steleehin said: I have chartered 3 times and have never attended the chart briefing . I have also always included annegada on my trips . I am just wondering is a briefing required on other charters. I told the girl when she Said I should attend the briefing. Did the islands move ?
I know I was a smart [censored] but I always stay the night before , do the boat brief and head out , I don't want unnecessary nonsense jolding us up . Just wondering what the feeling is in the community on chart briefings for repeat charterers First off welcome to TTOL. I am not sure where to start on this one. I do not have your sailing resume in front of me so I will try to tread lightly. I am part of the management team at CYOA. I have been working there for the better part of nine years. I have done literally hundreds of briefings. I also have been boating my entire adult life. I am fifty so you can figure out that math. I also have owned six different boats personally. There are anchorages in the BVI's that I still have not been to. Every week we send out boats and our briefers have constantly updated local knowledge. From missing markers, changes in moorings or anchorages, to information about entertainment. I do not know how long a Moorings Chart briefing takes but I am sure it is not that long. Frankly if you are not willing to invest an hour or two of your time in the briefing process so that they can throw you the keys to someones pride and joy you shouldn't be chartering. We all love the fun stuff, but it is serious business operating a complex, large and very expensive boat in unfamiliar waters. If you seriously think after three trips, twenty one whole days in these waters and likely a year or two between trips you have "local" knowledge you are either a phenomenally talented sailor or you haven't had enough experience to understand the ramifications when things do not go the right way. You come here to slow down and relax. Start that process with your time on the dock. Take a deep breath, look around, check the boat learn from the briefer and stay safe. That is time well spent the beach bar will still be there when you arrive.
Last edited by CaptainJay; 09/10/2016 07:35 AM.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: CaptainJay]
#107243
09/10/2016 09:39 AM
09/10/2016 09:39 AM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 109 Bozeman / Minneapolis
snowdog
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Posts: 109
Bozeman / Minneapolis
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Great answer, CaptainJay! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />
s/v Snow Dog - Leopard 46
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: mcevog]
#107244
09/10/2016 09:48 AM
09/10/2016 09:48 AM
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,720 Massachusetts
maytrix
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
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You've never done a chart briefing?
Most companies at least require it the first time and then if you are there often enough, they don't require you do it again. It never hurts to do it though as you never know what new information you might get.
Matt
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: snowdog]
#107246
09/10/2016 10:29 AM
09/10/2016 10:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
StormJib
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Traveler
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Posts: 1,049
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Captain Jay's answer is excellent. After decades of chartering and sailing on six continents I certainly know everything. Over the years we have learned to never rush from the dock. It defeats the purpose of most vacations. It can also be very stressful for many around you. With us the boat never moves until everyone is ready. That starts the first day and continues until the boat must move to return it. I will confess I do not always sit through the chart briefing myself. Someone, usually two, on the crew always does. Things do change in the BVI and it is impossible to recall and know everything. I highly doubt your have taken the time to acquire, read, and update all the charts using the Admiralty Notice to Mariners and the USCG equivalent for the USVI. The list of possibilities are endless. Including weather and storm procedures this time of year. In my opinion the crew should be represented by a good student and note taker in that room. With the Moorings I expect that is where you will be able to get the releases signed go to Anegada. Stuff to do in a relaxed manner while others enjoy the knowledge transfer of the briefing. Truly make sure you know where everything is on the boat, truly make sure there are no airlocks and the water tanks are completely filled, make sure the the dinghy is easy to start for the least physical member of the crew. Check-Out is really for us the charter to inspect the boat. Make sure that is completed and everything stored before you consider leaving the dock. All stuff we learned along the way and stuff we skipped when I was 20ish leading my third charter. There is another long thread here on someone who was unhappy with her entire charter experience. I do not know her and I was not there. But, I highly suspect demonstrating attitudes like this on the dock led to her teams demise. I told the girl when she Said I should attend the briefing. Did the islands move ? I know I was a smart [censored] but I always stay the night before , do the boat brief and head out , I don't want unnecessary nonsense jolding us up . That is just +/- 25 words and I do not know you. But the tone and word selection screams that you do not know how to succeed on Tortola or anywhere across the Carribean. Maybe someone else can help us here with the best practices to gain favor and cooperation with any unique needs on the charter boat docks. Note: I consider the publicly declared position that I am too good for a chart briefing a unique need. Before you flame me in rage. Consider whatever you do for a profession. How good where you at it the third time? What have you learned since then. I suggest you change your first day focus to not leaving the dock until everyone in the crew, the boat, and the staff there to support you in the sun is ready. Take a few minutes in the shade of the bimini to chuckle at the circus clowns trying to rush themselves and crew away from the dock. Don't be that clown this time.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: Chriskal]
#107248
09/10/2016 03:22 PM
09/10/2016 03:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,040 Charlotte, NC
NCSailor
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,040
Charlotte, NC
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Chriskal said: The Moorings chart briefings are relatively pro forma PowerPoint type presentations and they don't take all that long. I believe their policy is that you must attend a briefing, but, I've never seen them tale a roll call. That said, I think it's fairly disrespectful to purposefully blow off the briefing just because you can. I disagree that it's disrespectful to blow off the chart briefing. I sat through the same old Moorings video tape several times back in the nineties. No new information ever presented. Complete waste of time unless it was your first trip. With the Moorings the briefing is not mandatory. Have not attended in the past 20 trips. We always survive and return the boat in at least as good condition as it was when we left the dock.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: NCSailor]
#107249
09/10/2016 03:42 PM
09/10/2016 03:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
StormJib
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
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NCSailor said:Chriskal said: The Moorings chart briefings are relatively pro forma PowerPoint type presentations and they don't take all that long. I believe their policy is that you must attend a briefing, but, I've never seen them tale a roll call. That said, I think it's fairly disrespectful to purposefully blow off the briefing just because you can. I disagree that it's disrespectful to blow off the chart briefing. I sat through the same old Moorings video tape several times back in the nineties. No new information ever presented. Complete waste of time unless it was your first trip. With the Moorings the briefing is not mandatory. Have not attended in the past 20 trips. We always survive and return the boat in at least as good condition as it was when we left the dock. Do you really want to comment on something you have not attended in 20 years?
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: NCSailor]
#107252
09/10/2016 04:51 PM
09/10/2016 04:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559 Apex, NC
agrimsrud
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559
Apex, NC
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I think there are two events going on here which may be intertwined which may be resulting in vast differences of opinion.
I have not sailed with Moorings but I believe it's the same set up as I've experienced at Sunsail - the boat briefing and the chart briefing are individual events. The chart briefing is in a room with some powerpoint slides and all the charter guests leaving that day are herded in for the same presentation. It's dull and not very informative IMHO but I would certainly not blow it off especially since I think it takes about 20 minutes. I wonder about the liability of damaging the boat (or heaven forbid a person) due to lacking some key piece of information that was presented at the chart briefing. I just seem to recall a statement in one of the forms that says something like you're not insured if you do something stupid. Is lack of attendance at the chart briefing one of these exclusionary events? The second briefing is the boat briefing which is on your boat. I would definitely not skip that.
I have also chartered at CYOA where the boat briefing and chart briefing are bundled together into a single personalized event on the boat you are taking out. CYOA will not allow you to miss this nor should you want to. The chart briefing on this combined event is very much personalized. If they have not seen you before you will get the full and detailed brief. After sailing a few times with them you will get the same briefing but a little quicker with perhaps less detail (you nod your head a lot and mumble affirmative sounds to speed up the person giving your brief). Independent of how many times you have chartered with them, this is your opportunity to ask about things that might have changed and suck out whatever local knowledge you are smart enough to ask about.
I now own a boat managed by CYOA. And guess what? I will have both a boat and chart briefing before leaving the dock. I suppose I could insist and blow this off but why would I? It's my opportunity to spend a few minutes with the people that know both the boat and the area a whole lot better than I do. What a treasure trove of information, wisdom, and knowledge. Maybe I can sign up for two briefings <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />
Life's short - sail more!
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: Schwendy]
#107253
09/10/2016 06:28 PM
09/10/2016 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 938 Georgia & South Carolina
Deepcut
Traveler
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Traveler
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Posts: 938
Georgia & South Carolina
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So it has been pointed out that some are video briefings , dated many years ago, perhaps online briefings of unknown time frame... Neither of which allows for interactive briefing (i.e. Questions and answers). Others are interactive, up-to-date, and valuable. Can't blame those who have a poor briefing (rating the value as "none") would choose on next trip to skip it. However, for these who have found "useless chart briefings" to consider the potential value when presented by someone like CaptainJay.
Schwendy got lucky missing that rock in what I believe is a "redlined" area. Also, during briefing I would expect a strong warning about overnighting in White Bay , JVD... I believe that is in the Cruising Guides as well (Probably warning about the area between Little Camanoe and Beef Island as well).
I hope if chartering my new yacht(Sea Tiger), you will get a VALUABLE briefing. If you find it worthless, I hope you will give me feedback. Hopefully, you will find it valuable and I will not have to collect anything from my Insurer, because you will anchor in Little Harbor or Great Harbor (JVD) and will take the cut between Little Camanoe and Big Camanoe.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: Deepcut]
#107254
09/10/2016 09:01 PM
09/10/2016 09:01 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 109 Bozeman / Minneapolis
snowdog
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 109
Bozeman / Minneapolis
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It is disappointing to read about other's experiences with poor chart briefings. A good chart briefing can be extremely helpful and a valuable use of time. I have chartered with Moorings in BVI, Croatia, and French Polynesia. I will say that the briefings in Croatia and FP were much more thorough and valuable than the BVI briefing.
But when done correctly, a good briefing can answer many of the questions posted on this site with up to date information. In addition to navigation questions, other questions like: "Do you know of any quiet anchorages that we should visit?" Or, "Are there new restaurants that we should try?" can be part of a good briefing. Maybe as paying customers we need to demand better chart briefings...
s/v Snow Dog - Leopard 46
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: agrimsrud]
#107255
09/11/2016 01:02 AM
09/11/2016 01:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 414 Memphis, TN
beerMe
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 414
Memphis, TN
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My one experience with Sunsail was the same as agrimsrund described. The presenter and the slides didn't redline anything. He even said if you take the shortcut into Gorda Sound you shouldn't have any problem with a cat but you might with a deep draft mono?!!! After I left the briefing I thought yeah he can be casual and say anything but if I'm breaking a rule and something happens, I'm screwed!
I much prefer an individual chart briefing, they usually have some idea of how familiar you are with the cruising area/experience level and what your plans are - it's just a more efficient way for me to get the info I need.
Life involves risks, take some prudent ones (NOT with the BVI ferries)!
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: StormJib]
#107256
09/11/2016 08:09 AM
09/11/2016 08:09 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,040 Charlotte, NC
NCSailor
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,040
Charlotte, NC
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StormJib said:NCSailor said:Chriskal said: The Moorings chart briefings are relatively pro forma PowerPoint type presentations and they don't take all that long. I believe their policy is that you must attend a briefing, but, I've never seen them tale a roll call. That said, I think it's fairly disrespectful to purposefully blow off the briefing just because you can. I disagree that it's disrespectful to blow off the chart briefing. I sat through the same old Moorings video tape several times back in the nineties. No new information ever presented. Complete waste of time unless it was your first trip. With the Moorings the briefing is not mandatory. Have not attended in the past 20 trips. We always survive and return the boat in at least as good condition as it was when we left the dock. Do you really want to comment on something you have not attended in 20 years? Yes, because I have been told by others that content of the briefing has not changed much.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: steleehin]
#107258
09/11/2016 09:08 AM
09/11/2016 09:08 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 646 MD, USA
polaris
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 646
MD, USA
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I have chartered many times over the years and, even when returning to the same area, not only have I always attended the chart briefing but bring along my first mate and another person - all taking notes and making notations on a chart. The only time I have been disappointed was with Sunsail in Belize. We REALLY wanted a good chart brief for these unknown (to us) waters and islands but got some person from the office who just turned on the powerpoint presentation and who had never been out in the islands and knew nothing to add to the boiler-plate presentation. We actually asked if there was someone available with knowledge of our sailing area, and there was not!
But we did find our way around and had a good time - great place for sailing without having to race for a spot to spend the night.
Polaris
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: agrimsrud]
#107259
09/11/2016 11:03 AM
09/11/2016 11:03 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,120 Petoskey, MI
CottageGirl
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,120
Petoskey, MI
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agrimsrud said:
I have also chartered at CYOA where the boat briefing and chart briefing are bundled together into a single personalized event on the boat you are taking out. CYOA will not allow you to miss this nor should you want to. The chart briefing on this combined event is very much personalized. If they have not seen you before you will get the full and detailed brief. After sailing a few times with them you will get the same briefing but a little quicker with perhaps less detail (you nod your head a lot and mumble affirmative sounds to speed up the person giving your brief). <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" /> This is exactly how the boat/chart briefings are at TMM - one on one, on the boat. We love the personalized and individual attention at TMM.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: CottageGirl]
#107260
09/11/2016 06:22 PM
09/11/2016 06:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 348 Pittsburgh, PA
Schwendy
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Posts: 348
Pittsburgh, PA
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I'm sure my decisions and recent experience will be judged in many different ways but I did the best I could. I was aware of the area being risky. I only chose that route because of weather and the fact that two locals, well known on this board, with vast experience told me to go that way and just take it slow. It really isn't a big deal there with the exception of the cardinal marker and the reef which is clearly visible. Funny thing, there was a Mooring's sailing school mono in that cut with me! I was literally sick with stress/nerves before this trip. I studied my [email]A@#[/email] off for months. I brought with me, a new paper chart, Navionics on my iPad, anchor alarm on my phone, a handheld radio, the Cruising Guide, the Virgin Anchorages photo book and my own notes/diagrams. I knew how to read the cardinal marker but being able to verify it with my own printed diagram was everything! I'm almost 50 yrs. old. This trip had been a dream for a long time. Everyone had their first time at some point and probably made at least one questionable decision. I soak up advice and constructive criticism. I'm here to learn and improve. Bashing, attitudes or elitism don't even penetrate my thick skull. I learned quickly in the military to brush that stuff off.
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: Schwendy]
#107263
09/12/2016 01:28 AM
09/12/2016 01:28 AM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 414 Memphis, TN
beerMe
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 414
Memphis, TN
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Yes Schwendy, on certain topics around here you'll get the bashing, attitudes and elitism. Funny thing is I don't think I've ever read a long term cruiser's blog, many circumnavigators, where they didn't make fun of us charterers (or out right fear us) when they sailed thru the popular charter areas. I also don't think I've read of many of them that still didn't make mistakes and had more to learn.
Anyway, I'm glad you have fulfilled a long term dream - the same dream I had. Now that you're in the fraternity it just gets better. I've had a blast chartering in several different areas and I hope you do too!
Life involves risks, take some prudent ones (NOT with the BVI ferries)!
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Re: Chart briefing moorings
[Re: Schwendy]
#107265
09/12/2016 07:10 AM
09/12/2016 07:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,054 GA/NC
GeorgeC1
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Traveler
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,054
GA/NC
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I cringed a bit when I read your post. I don't want too sound to critical especially since you have the right attitude and realize you made mistakes. For the benefit of others it's worth mentioning a few things often repeated here. On the subject of White Bay you should only overnight there with a perfect forecast. That happens less then 10% of the time. You should never overnight there without a updated forecast. On sailing in areas that are red zoned there are always reasons that they were set up. The passage the poster took can be safely transited with the correct GPS waypoints. If you don't follow the exact right route then you are playing Russian roulette. There are several areas that will catch even a cat. The real question is why anyone would go that route when the recommended route is far more scenic and maybe 10 minutes longer. What is 10 minutes on charter verses a ruined week? G
Last edited by GeorgeC1; 09/12/2016 07:10 AM.
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