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Yikes - be careful out there! #312360
01/23/2024 03:48 PM
01/23/2024 03:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 170
Chicago, IL, USA
vytis104 Offline OP
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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312363
01/23/2024 04:10 PM
01/23/2024 04:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
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GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Online content
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I just dont understand how that could happen. The wave action you are seeing is the result of a well forecast North Swell beginning to arrive.

Last edited by GeorgeC1; 01/23/2024 04:13 PM.
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312376
01/23/2024 09:47 PM
01/23/2024 09:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
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USVI
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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312381
01/23/2024 10:37 PM
01/23/2024 10:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 170
Chicago, IL, USA
vytis104 Offline OP
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Rumor has it this is the Wandering Hillbilly. Not exactly a credit card cptn. Rudder Problems.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312383
01/23/2024 10:56 PM
01/23/2024 10:56 PM
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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312384
01/23/2024 11:29 PM
01/23/2024 11:29 PM
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Posts: 170
Chicago, IL, USA
vytis104 Offline OP
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The bad decision is public.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312386
01/24/2024 05:04 AM
01/24/2024 05:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,020
U.K. and Spain
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That's going to be an interesting conversation with his insurance company. So, you took your boat off the dock, knowing you had no steering? Ok, let's talk about your claim.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312387
01/24/2024 06:48 AM
01/24/2024 06:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,561
Grenada
Zanshin Offline
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The consequences of bad decisions come home to roost...


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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312391
01/24/2024 08:34 AM
01/24/2024 08:34 AM
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Charlotte, NC
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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312392
01/24/2024 09:02 AM
01/24/2024 09:02 AM
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And with radar and a foresail that L42 likely isn’t in a charter fleet.


Last edited by MIDiver; 01/24/2024 09:03 AM.
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312393
01/24/2024 09:04 AM
01/24/2024 09:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,561
Grenada
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@MIDiver - where did that occur? I see a yellow flag, so they were probably clearing in, but where?


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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312397
01/24/2024 09:29 AM
01/24/2024 09:29 AM
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MIDiver Offline
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Zanshin - it is on Norman. South side I heard.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312403
01/24/2024 09:46 AM
01/24/2024 09:46 AM
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Redmond, WA
MrEZgoin Online content
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Looks like Money Bay


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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312404
01/24/2024 09:51 AM
01/24/2024 09:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,561
Grenada
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Hmmm... what is a yellow-flagged boat doing there? I cannot think of a route from the USVI to the BVI that might include that destination, and even leaving the BVI that is unlikely, as most boats don't yellow-flag until they reach USVI waters. That sailcover looks familiar for a charter company, perhaps Dream Yacht Charter.


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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312409
01/24/2024 10:45 AM
01/24/2024 10:45 AM
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On FB: We saw it two days ago. It is on the back side of Norman at Money Bay on the reef to the west side. It is a private boat but couldn’t get the name. Hulls have holes in them and water is coming in over the stern. Rudders are gone. Rigging and sails were still in tack. US registered and flying a Q flag—so I am guessing it came from down island. Dinghy with chaps and nice outboard was tied to shore. Found a floating life raft in its canister along with boat cushions that we put near the dinghy. Told people at bar who had not heard anything from anyone. Yesterday, the dinghy and life raft were gone but boat still on reef. Don’t know how it got there. Haven’t been there today

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312410
01/24/2024 11:13 AM
01/24/2024 11:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 167
Houston, TX
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Wandering Hillbilly posted this update and says a video is coming out soon...they were on a mooring ball that failed, no one was aboard. Curious to hear where they were moored. Charts show some private moorings off the beach at Mountain Trunk Bay. I don't know how big the swell was, but that easily could have been at play here with the added strain on the mooring.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2fCBIRu_bq/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312412
01/24/2024 11:29 AM
01/24/2024 11:29 AM
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Washington DC
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Not a good look to post a video showing going out without steering or even going out....speaking to the power boat. Not sure what the sail story is

Last edited by bailau; 01/24/2024 11:31 AM.
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312413
01/24/2024 11:35 AM
01/24/2024 11:35 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
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Redmond, WA
MrEZgoin Online content
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Unfortunately, after publicizing the indefensible decision to leave the dock, it doesn't really matter if the grounding had anything to do with the rudder problems.

The owner's outrage at being unfairly judged is almost comical if the whole thing weren't so tragic.


M4000 "Lio Kai"
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: MrEZgoin] #312422
01/24/2024 01:04 PM
01/24/2024 01:04 PM
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MIDiver Offline
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Those balls at Mountain Trunk are private. There was big swell. Another forum member communicated with me yesterday enroute to N Sound that the swell was BIG with huge breakers off Savannah Bay. Can’t imagine sea conditions were great in the Mountain Trunk area.

Last edited by MIDiver; 01/24/2024 01:08 PM.
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312424
01/24/2024 01:15 PM
01/24/2024 01:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2020
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Virgin Gorda, BVI
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absolutely WILD decision to put a boat that big on those private balls with those conditions IMO.

it was swelly and windy yesterday

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312479
01/25/2024 08:44 AM
01/25/2024 08:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 108
Hillsborough, NC
OceanSong Offline
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The Wandering Hillbilly’s poor decisions were probably, at least in part, driven by his YouTube persona. He had to put up some interesting content. Having guests and not wanting to delay their fun was likely another factor. Ego projected over the internet while on a boat can be a bad recipe. Although the WH knows his boat and handles it well, seamanship encompasses much more than that. His decision to leave the dock without steering (except to go short distance for repairs) is not just poor seamanship, it was potentially dangerous for everyone onboard. He can try to justify it anyway he wants, but it shines a bright light on his lack of judgement a a captain. Regardless of the fact the beaching may have been the direct result of a faulty mooring, the WH was a poor captain overall.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312482
01/25/2024 09:04 AM
01/25/2024 09:04 AM
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Memphis, BVI, CT
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Private moorings are constructed by the owner to meet their needs, for example to hold a small motorboat or day cruiser. One problem with squatting is putting a boat much larger than the mooring was designed for. I hope this culprit intends to pay to repair the mooring.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: RatmansWife] #312486
01/25/2024 09:15 AM
01/25/2024 09:15 AM
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Posts: 108
Hillsborough, NC
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Excellent point, well taken. The mooring may have been designed for a much smaller boat, and not faulty at all.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312487
01/25/2024 09:26 AM
01/25/2024 09:26 AM
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GeorgeC1 Online content
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The 3 moorings in Nail bay were setup for club members to moor small center console boats. I don’t know if he was on one of those but if so his 54.000 lb boat was a bit over the limit.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312488
01/25/2024 09:30 AM
01/25/2024 09:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 108
Hillsborough, NC
OceanSong Offline
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One other thought: With the weather forecast, we all knew swell was coming in. Nail Bay would seem to be very exposed, why be moored there at all?

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312492
01/25/2024 09:45 AM
01/25/2024 09:45 AM
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Memphis, BVI, CT
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One evening we were at our community beach, where a neighbor had a private mooring for his 23' motorboat. All the Marina Cay moorings were taken. In comes this 50+' Moorings cat. The captain, looking oh-so-pleased with himself, heads straight for the small mooring not far from the shore and our community dock. We all started waving and making a big show of taking photos. He finally got the message and took his boat elsewhere.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: OceanSong] #312535
01/25/2024 05:03 PM
01/25/2024 05:03 PM
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Washington DC
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bailau Offline
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Originally Posted by OceanSong
The Wandering Hillbilly’s poor decisions were probably, at least in part, driven by his YouTube persona. He had to put up some interesting content. Having guests and not wanting to delay their fun was likely another factor. Ego projected over the internet while on a boat can be a bad recipe. Although the WH knows his boat and handles it well, seamanship encompasses much more than that. His decision to leave the dock without steering (except to go short distance for repairs) is not just poor seamanship, it was potentially dangerous for everyone onboard. He can try to justify it anyway he wants, but it shines a bright light on his lack of judgement a a captain. Regardless of the fact the beaching may have been the direct result of a faulty mooring, the WH was a poor captain overall.



well said...his celebrity trumped being a good captain and all the experience in the world doesnt make up for arrogance and recklessness

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: GeorgeC1] #312539
01/25/2024 07:19 PM
01/25/2024 07:19 PM
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Panama City Beach, Florida
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Originally Posted by GeorgeC1
The 3 moorings in Nail bay were setup for club members to moor small center console boats. I don’t know if he was on one of those but if so his 54.000 lb boat was a bit over the limit.

Attached Files WH.jpg
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312541
01/25/2024 08:36 PM
01/25/2024 08:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,126
GA/NC
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The discussion on Nail Bay brought up memories of a plan for a large Marina there. Does anyone know what happened to the plan?

https://bvipropertyyacht.com/yachting/nail-bay-marina/

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312546
01/26/2024 08:58 AM
01/26/2024 08:58 AM
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New Paltz, NY, Narragansett, R...
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I believe that idea was squashed by Kellner after he bought it. His goal was to keep Nail Bay quiet and as private as possible. There had been a few remaining parcels of land for sale and after he became owner he took them off market. He didn't want more construction. I am told he was the only one in his family that really loved coming to VG and he had to put in as many amenities to his own properties as he could to entice them to come. After his death they aren't involved much and I would guess that his entity that now runs both Nail Bay and Saba have no interest in pursuing a past owners brainchild.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312600
01/27/2024 04:43 PM
01/27/2024 04:43 PM
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Redmond, WA
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The Wandering Hillbilly posted another video. Kind of hard to watch and I genuinely feel sorry for him and what happened. However, his apparent inability to recognize ANY of his errors is a head-scratcher. He rejects any suggestion that his decision making as Captain was anything less than exemplary. "I have nothing to defend", and "As a Hollywood producer... I eliminate ALL points of failure. I'm a live Holllywood director, I cannot fail."

There's footage of the damage and it could very well be a total loss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2UU2w4Ok0g


M4000 "Lio Kai"
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312601
01/27/2024 04:48 PM
01/27/2024 04:48 PM
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MIDiver Offline
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Arrogance. He had NO business being on those balls. I don’t care who you are.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312604
01/27/2024 06:35 PM
01/27/2024 06:35 PM
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Massachusetts USA
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I feel terrible for him. Maybe he made a mistake - who among us hasn't? Hard to count the number of times I've lucked out after a bad decision or some stupid mess up and thought "Wow, that could have gone very badly..."

Whatever the cause, I'm not going to castigate him for it. I'm going to learn from it and sympathize with him, and wish him luck on getting back on the water.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312605
01/27/2024 06:40 PM
01/27/2024 06:40 PM
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Hopefully he will also learn from it when his boat is fixed. So far however he does not suggest he has anything to learn. A few points he might consider.
1. Don’t operate with failed steering other than moving the boat to a safe location.
2. Avoid Lee shores with large swells running.
3. Avoid private moorings unless you have permission from the owner and have verified the mooring is sized for your boat weight.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312613
01/27/2024 08:43 PM
01/27/2024 08:43 PM
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Posts: 170
Chicago, IL, USA
vytis104 Offline OP
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I have been wondering if his videos could be used against him by his insurance company.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312617
01/27/2024 10:02 PM
01/27/2024 10:02 PM
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Hillsborough, NC
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I watched the latest video and I feel bad for anyone who loses a boat. I’ve been there, losing my boat during Irma. The best thing that happened was that she was quickly declared a CTL. That would probably be best for the WH.

The WH’s statement that he “eliminates all points of failure” is perplexing when he posted a video just a week or so ago literally bragging that his twin screw yacht could be operated with “no problem” without steering (as though he was operating her on a mill pond). He was creating points of failure! The sea does not sit idly by and wait for mistakes, at times she will force them upon any mariner. Either he doesn’t understand that the sea will potentially create points of failure every time one leaves the dock or he chooses to ignore it. I just don’t think he gets it.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312646
01/28/2024 11:28 AM
01/28/2024 11:28 AM
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Massachusetts USA
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Agree that his comment about eliminating points of failure was a bit odd. I THINK he was trying to defend himself against accusations of just going out and winging it but yeah, I think it was phrased poorly.

I actually didn't watch the full video where he lost steering and was using only his engines to steer. Was this (the grounding) the same trip and he was out there still with no rudder?

He did say he did have permission from the owner to use the ball when he stayed there without incident the previous week. It's unclear whether the owner knew the size of the boat but I would think, if the ball was only safe for smaller boats, the owner would ask what size he was. I don't know the where the restaurant is in relation to the ball - can the owner see the balls and what size boat is on them?

This incident really does drive home a dilemma (for me anyway) - pick up a ball or anchor. Some places (like Cooper I think?) you have no choice as no anchoring is allowed. Sounds like it's challenging at Norman because of the depth maybe? But, it also seems like it might be safer in general to anchor rather than take a ball. I know in St. Martin, on our last few charters there (pre storm), The Moorings started advising use to NOT use the balls because they are so poorly maintained.

Here's a question: When you do pick up a ball, do you back down on it like you do when testing your anchor set? Seems like WH might have avoided his grounding if he had tested the tackle.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312647
01/28/2024 11:40 AM
01/28/2024 11:40 AM
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Grenada
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@tmxmsails - Cooper discourages anchoring because of the sea grass and turtles. I anchor at Norman all the time, but the 50+ foot depth outside of the mooring field means few, if any, charter boats can anchor there. Great Harbour on JVD has such terrible holding that I'd take a mooring there. I've picked up a drifting catamaran, still attached to the mooring, in less than 5 knots of wind at Norman. When I do take a mooring, I will snorkel it and check as much of the line as I can. Recently I took a mooring in Grenada where it looked substantial from the surface but was only a thin polypro line holding me. But other places such as Leverick I can't understand why one would take a mooring - less than 20 feet depth and great holding in sand.

Despite WH's comments, if he'd eliminated all points of failure, he'd still have his boat.

Backing down on a mooring makes sense.

Last edited by Zanshin; 01/28/2024 11:41 AM.

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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312649
01/28/2024 12:04 PM
01/28/2024 12:04 PM
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Memphis, BVI, CT
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In the video he said the previous week he called Sugarcane restaurant, said he wanted to come to lunch, asked if he could put his boat on a mooring and was told he could. He did not know to whom he spoke, and he didn't mention discussing the size of his boat. Does the restaurant own the moorings? He doesn't mention requesting permission on his next visit to use a different mooring. At the end of the video he says he has been in contact with the owner of the mooring, but does not elaborate on that conversation.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312656
01/28/2024 01:15 PM
01/28/2024 01:15 PM
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Panama City Beach, Florida
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Sounds like he decided to moor on a Lee shore. He mentioned they decided to swim in because it was too rough to beach the dingy. I can only imagine the pressure of those swells on that mooring. It was loose before he even made it to shore.

Last edited by xrayman67; 01/28/2024 01:33 PM.
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312658
01/28/2024 01:27 PM
01/28/2024 01:27 PM
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Redmond, WA
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I passed by the area on that day, probably a bit before the grounding occurred. It looked very rough and those moorings are also quite close to shore (swimming distance) and probably on a pretty short scope.


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Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312659
01/28/2024 01:32 PM
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GeorgeC1  Online Content
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GA/NC
You have to listen closely but he did not have permission. The week prior he called the restaurant and someone told him he could use the moorings for lunch. I doubt the fact his boat weighed 54,000 lbs came up and he might have been talking to the dishwasher. He did say he has spoken with the actual owner after the fact however he declined to disclose what the owner said. The owner might want him to replace the ball.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: MrEZgoin] #312660
01/28/2024 01:34 PM
01/28/2024 01:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,126
GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Online content
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GeorgeC1  Online Content
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Posts: 7,126
GA/NC
Originally Posted by MrEZgoin
I passed by the area on that day, probably a bit before the grounding occurred. It looked very rough and those moorings are also quite close to shore (swimming distance) and probably on a pretty short scope.


We were there that day and the North Swell was cranking up along with the wind. I would not have been comfortable 200 feet of a Lee shore regardless of the mooring capacity.

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312662
01/28/2024 01:45 PM
01/28/2024 01:45 PM
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steve74 Offline
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We stayed on one of the three moorings in June of last year after permission from the owner - which we obtained through a friend. The owner shared with our friend that the moorings are privately owned (by at least two people who own homes in Sugarcane) and were installed for boats larger than our 43 PC. By the way, the one we stayed on was solid at the time (it's not the one he was on), but it did have more growth than the national park and BoatyBall moorings. It was also a calm night in June with no swell.

Regarding Alan Carter - the Wandering Hillbilly - we met him last year, and he seemed like a genuinely good person. I have also enjoyed his videos. I'm sure he gets something financial out of his YouTube prominence (likely peanuts compared to his real job), but it seems like his main motivation is helping others by sharing knowledge and providing a unique experience for his family and friends.

I really hate that this happened to him, and I humbly admit that I've made numerous mistakes that (fortunately) have not resulted in a similar fate - but could have.
True cruisers state that grounding a boat is inevitable if you go out enough, and every year that we go on our two week adventure in the BVI, I learn ways to reduce the odds of this happening - but I'm still learning. I'll be curious what others says about backing down on mooring balls - especially with a PC. We put the motors in reverse to add pressure to test the ball, but we have heard that you aren't supposed to back down too hard with a PC. I like to see the ball sink and hold, but we don't add additional throttle - is this correct?

Anyway, I hope Alan bounces back from this. I know that I have gained some additional perspective from his ordeal.

Last edited by steve74; 01/28/2024 01:47 PM.
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312667
01/28/2024 03:48 PM
01/28/2024 03:48 PM
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Posts: 1,409
Washington DC
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bailau Offline
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That is what I do on the 514 PC...quick reverse on 1 engine and let momentum take ball underwater. And I use anchor watch on ball...

and always trying to learn what it is a I dont know I dont know..still remember the night I learned about the North Swell

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: bailau] #312668
01/28/2024 03:55 PM
01/28/2024 03:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 742
Panama City Beach, Florida
xrayman67 Offline
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Panama City Beach, Florida
Originally Posted by bailau
That is what I do on the 514 PC...quick reverse on 1 engine and let momentum take ball underwater. And I use anchor watch on ball...

and always trying to learn what it is a I dont know I dont know..still remember the night I learned about the North Swell

Same here. We woke up in CGB about 2 am being tossed around. Daylight couldn't come quickly enough!

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312671
01/28/2024 05:04 PM
01/28/2024 05:04 PM
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Posts: 1,409
Washington DC
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bailau Offline
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Same at CGB…

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312678
01/28/2024 08:46 PM
01/28/2024 08:46 PM
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Shifty Offline
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Shifty  Offline
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I've been following this forum and gathering very helpful information and counsel for many years. In fact, I'm one among your so-called "credit card captains." This is one explanation for my interest...I live in Indiana (and love it), but make a deliberate point of traveling to, and learning more and more about the wonders of the Virgin Islands almost every year and, especially, the timeless craft of sailing whenever I can visit the place that has for me been a treasure since my dad first took me down in the mid 80's. And nearly every time I visit, sail and explore, I have the opportunity to introduce others to something that for me has been life changing. And I gain important wisdom from so many in this online community who have enriched that experience, which makes me a little better at doing every time I come down. I hope and trust that, for all of us, this is true in many area of our lives.

In view of this humble background, I wanted to pipe in with a shout-out to those of you who have been expressing grace toward the skipper who is the subject of this thread and who has recently endured a really difficult and probably terrifying experience.

I'm nothing approaching the kind of serious sailor to whom special respect is owed, or expected. But I'll confess that I truly love visiting this discussion when encouragement and compassion win out over ridicule and condemnation. I think we can all be assured that this particular seafarer will take important lessons from this experience...and be better for it. And better the yet if what he is hearing from his fellow travelers in this important space is meant to build him up when he is already down.

Shifty

Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: vytis104] #312684
01/29/2024 01:29 AM
01/29/2024 01:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 21
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SV Absolutely Offline
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Very little humility and a total lack of hubris on display in his latest video - “see, the Marine Max guy was on the ball too…..” Sorry, but he did NOT eliminate all points of failure, including himself.


SV Absolutely
Re: Yikes - be careful out there! [Re: SV Absolutely] #312802
01/31/2024 10:42 AM
01/31/2024 10:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 21
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SV Absolutely Offline
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SV Absolutely  Offline
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Originally Posted by SV Absolutely
Very little humility and a total lack of hubris on display in his latest video - “see, the Marine Max guy was on the ball too…..” Sorry, but he did NOT eliminate all points of failure, including himself.


Meant “no lack of hubris”


SV Absolutely
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