Let's see if we can have a discussion without the lock hammer needing to be thrown. :-)

In other threads this topic has come up, so I figured let's give it a dedicated thread. Here is my $.02 (USD).

I am a 3x cruiser to St. Martin, and have always spent the day at Club O. Not sure how much St. Martin gets, but our port fees for 4 stops was $130, so guessing St. Martin gets $30 or so. On at ship with 3,000 people, that is $90,000 that St. Maarten gets (I wonder how, or if, it is split with the French side). When we were there on Nov. 19, there were 6 ships in port, and the passenger count was around 12,000. That would be around $360,000 for ONE DAY (and not everyone is getting off the ship).
That, friends, is A LOT of money that is going to the island. Money that YOU as residents (temp or full time) would be paying. On top of that, many of those cruisers are spending even more dollars, which is helping the merchants stay in business as well. I take a $20 taxi to Club O, and give the driver a $5 tip if they accept (for the gas), so that is $50 round trip. We then get a couple drinks at the Perch, $20 for the chairs and umbrella, and we have eaten at Papagayos. So that is another $140 left in St. Martin just for my wife and I to spend a day under the ever sweet yellow umbrella.

So, I am sorry my arriving with 2,999 of my new friends disrupts your 3 week vacation spot, but some of the money cruisers spend there helps keep government costs down, which in turn keeps your TS costs down, so in the end, while you may not directly see $$$, your costs are lower than they would be, or you could say the services on the island are way better than they otherwise might be. However you slice it, the island has way more money when the cruise ships pull out than they had that morning.
I hope this gives you something to mull over the next time Maho Beach traffic is snarled for an hour due to overflow cruiser taxis.

| This was written a bit tongue-in-cheek. Please take no offense. I DO understand why people staying for a few weeks are upset with the massive crush of people that show up on the cruise days. I wouldn't like it either. But they are a big revenue for the island.

Perhaps someone can post what the real passenger port revenue is, and if it is split between the two governments.

While you are correct, what I see is bad planning, the island doesn't have the infrastructure to handle that many guests on the island, it's become way to overcrowded during high seaSon, just look what is happening with the roads when the bridges are up. But they keep collecting the money, bringing in the ships, and causing nightmares for residents. That's great that the island collects big money, but at whose expense? As my father nicely put it years ago "you can't fit 10lbs of sugar in a 5lb bag", and that's what is being allowed on the island, between over development, the amount of cruise ships at once and the tie ups at the bridge having so many yachts come and go. IMHO

Those are good points Kim,and I can feel the pain in your post. Do you feel they should consider putting a limit on the number of passengers that could be in port on any given day? I'm sure the cruise lines would hate that, but they would certainly be able to figure out new schedules to accommodate that type of requirement.
What would be a tolerable number?

Cruisers are fine with me. Bring down the lock hammer. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

The economy is dependent on tourist dollars and without the cruise ship dollars the economy of the islands (all of the Caribbean islands) would be far, far worse. That's just a fact. You can hate cruise ships all you want, but the people who live there depend on them.

Living in Florida, I see a different version of the same thing here all the time. People complain incessantly about the tourists, most especially during the high season. If it weren't for the tourist dollars, though, our taxes would be drastically higher, government services far less, and the overall economy much worse.

Here in Florida, the tourists are a blessing in disguise, just like the cruise ship tourists are in the islands.

Someone mentioned poor planning above. I would suggest that there had been really no planning at all. This all just evolved into a big mess on its own, through management by reaction, rather than by any plan.

Looking down on Cruise Ship Tourists is most certainly plain old snobbery, a snobbery of which I am guilty as much as the rest of you. Cruise ship passengers are not seen as "insiders" like those of us who go to SXM regularly and repeatedly, and are therefore scoffed at. Visitors to Florida mentioned above the are same thing.

Are we regulars "cooler" or more deserving? Cooler, possibly (you couldn't pay me to go on a cruise ship), more deserving, not at all. We're all guests of one kind or another.

At the end of the day, does a full-time resident appreciate those millions and millions of tourist dollars? Of course. Do they get frustrated by the crowds? Yep. Is it going to change? Nope.

Every time we go we get closer to buying a condo, but at the same time, every time we go the place is more choked with people, making you not want to live there. I am sure we will be nosing around real estate offices in February.

Cruise ships a vital to the economy of the island the injection of revenue to their economy is huge
I know on Club O beach the cruise ship people are not well liked because of the gauking
The last few years I have noticed more and more of the cruise ship gaukers are joining in on the Club O beach
The value of the cruise ships to the island cannot be over looked

I have witnessed some actions on Orient Beach towards the "gawkers" that were not becoming at all to the people mocking them.

Cruise ships play a vital role in the SXM economy.

In response to both of these comments, I have no horse in this race either way, be it towards the 'gawkers' or the reactions (and on rare occasions the behaviors as well....) of some of the OB denizens towards those visitors, and I really could care less about the cruise ship guests one way or the other as far as their presence goes, anymore than the real St. Maarteners object to so many of us visitors invading their home and wanting change.

Economically, obviously the cruise ships are a large boon to the island and that is a good thing. As far as the infrastructure to support so many of them, this has never been much of a major priority to the island powers that be and I doubt it will ever change so we all need to either accept it is what it is or keep looking for our individual paradise. I've found mine already.

And what I do strongly object to are the beach visitors, and particularly those off the large party boats, who come to the beach to enjoy it for a bit and then leave, leaving their trash behind on the beaches, and even more than that, I truly resent the boat companies themselves for not doing a thorough clean-up of their own trash both in the water and on the beach, where their guests have dropped it. That's about my biggest pet peeve over all the island faux pas. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

I didn't think "quakers" would walk a nude beach. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/jester.gif" alt="" />

Ok, you got me on that one and I edited my post to the correct word/spelling.

I have know some "quakers" that water skied so I guess anything might be possible.

I really don't think you want to get into anything regarding spelling do you?

We have vacationed on SXM staying a week or more for many years and we have been on cruise ships to SXM too many times to remember. Like most, we would prefer for our own self interest if the island had stayed as it was when we first tendered in off a ship about 25 years ago. Of course, among many many other things, we also would prefer if I95 had not become the road to avoid at all costs as way too many people are trying to drive when we want to drive - and do not even get me started on the changes to air travel.

When we are staying on the island, the cruise pax on island do not bother us - when there are a lot of ships in, we usually make that a day to go to someplace other than Orient or Philipsburg (both of which can become a bit of a zoo) or other spots that will be swarmed - we often take a day sail excursion on such a day.

Unless you just want and need to be on Orient between the Perch and Coco every day during the time the cruisers are on island, you really do not have to deal with them much, in my opinion. There really are not that many cruisers who walk the entire CO beach to watersports and I do not see why they need appreciably affect anyone's enjoyment of CO beach.

I think it very hard to try to answer the question whether the enormous money coming into SXM, particularly Sint Maarten, because of cruise ship payments of port charges is good or bad without considering what happens to the money and whether the money promotes a culture of corruption which causes more negative impact than the positive impact of the monies that make it to the "real" people of SXM. I do not think that is a discussion for this board.

Actually this response is to those who have responded to the initial post.

Here's some suggested beach readings or while cruising.

Cruise Ship Squeeze: The New Pirates of the Seven Seas / Ross A. Klein
Cruise Ship Blues:the underside of the cruise ship industry / Ross A. Klein

I personally have no issues with "cruisers", I have come via cruise once and had a blast. And it isn't their fault how the island is being brought to them. Where I have issues is the "planning" committee. I have been on the roads when that mega sized bus is showing people around, the roads aren't made for buses that size. There should be a limit as to how many tours are brought to Sunset - not about money, but safety on the street. As stated before, the infrastructure just doesn't hold up to the amount of people during high season. Buses dump large groups of people on Mullet - but there are no facilities, limited garbage disposal up and down the beach, your packed liked sardines. Where is the quality in that. I get the - let's make a buck when we can, but there should be controls on volume.

Without cruise ships, people on Orient Beach would never see guys in knee-hi black socks walking the beach.
So cruise ships are obviously good.

<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" /> We have a winner! Chicken dinner! LOL

We have been long time visitors to the island and have arrived by air and sea. St. Maarten/St. Martin relies heavily on the tourist business and without the cruise ships would suffer greatly. I realize the cruisers do not spend the same amount of money as they once did, but neither do other visitors. It is a sign of the times influenced by the economy.I also realize the infrastructure does not lend itself to so many visitors, but neither does that of other islands we have visited.Perhaps in the future we might see some changes, but there is only so much land to deal with so really I am not expecting too much improvement in this area.

So Yes. I do feel that cruisers are GOOD for the island regardless whether other visitors are happy about it or not. It should not even be our concern. We are merely visitors to this country and are privileged to enjoy nature's beauty there.

When we're on the beach at Club Orient, we're always sociable towards cruise ship visitors - as long as they're no invading anyone's privacy by taking photos. Example: When we were there 2 weeks ago, a group of Mexican women "cruisers" decided to go into the water and at first were going to leave their belongings on the beach (it's narrow) where they could get soaked or, worse, swiped. The chairs next to us were vacated for the day, so my wife told the senoras to leave their things on the chair and we would watch them. They couldn't thank us enough for this small gesture.

I seldom leave the Maho/Cupecoy area anymore, so really don't have much contact with the cruisers. Obviously they make a serious contribution to the economy of the island, so I guess that's a good thing. Maybe the island authorities could institute some "off peak" fees etc and do a better job of spreading out the visitors and take the pressure off the infrastructure

Nice gesture. I am sure they appreciated that. I always say"treat others as you would like to be treated.

WOW, it's amazing the different attitude toward cruisers on the BVI board. They treat them with disdain. I think it hard to judge 3000 people as all the same. We own a boat and still love to cruise, A.I., and land vacation as well.

I received a PM that stated that the port revenue stays on the Dutch side, and is not shared. While I have not been able to find anything that specifically states that, I have found enough anecdotal evidence to believe this to be true.

I have not been able to find what the port fee is for a Sint Maarten cruise passenger, but the Port of Sint Maarten website does have some interesting figures. In 2014, the port handled 2 Million cruise passengers for the year, setting a new record. If my $30 estimate is close, that is $60M in fees. But wow, that is A LOT of people......

Instead of debating cruisers vs TS owners (or others who stay for days or weeks at a time) how about considering the effect of ALL non-residents on those who live & work here and are constantly delayed by people blocking traffic to take pictures or driving like a snail.
Locals, whose jobs may have nothing to do with the tourist industry, are inconvenienced by the demands of people who give no thought to their hosts. The back-ups around Sunset Beach Bar have been discussed many times here but are far from the only example of selfish behavior.

While I agree that there are many other examples of selfish behavior by tourists in general, like it or not, SXM is a tourist based economy and even if a local's job isn't directly related to tourism, in almost all cases, their job is at least INdirectly affected by tourism.

As far as cruise ship passengers in general, their presence has very little effect on land visitors and while the money that comes from cruise visitors is concentrated in a few areas, the island as a whole needs cruise visitors.

See, I don't see this as selfish behavior. Your on a cruise, they pack you on a bus, drop you off in a tiny area meant for 1/3 the amount of people there. It's not the tourists fault, it's the cruise line and the establishment for allowing it, they are to blame for the "locals" being late for work. This is the "piss poor planning" I have been mentioning. I did a cruise and stopped in STT, took ferry to St. John, our group was maybe 30, we were in little open air vans, (correct size for the roads), then brought to a beach for lunch, we weren't packed like sardines, because there was a limit on the amount of people the establishment could handle. Seems like the mentality is to get as many people there as possible and who cares about the experience, but the days of the tourist season being short is over. Idk what the answer is.

I am glad I decided to risk starting this thread, and it has taken a bit of a different turn than I expected. Seeing that 2 million cruise passenger number for 2014 really woke me up a bit. But they're not spread evenly, since cruise ships are not in port every day. So you have major traffic, then no traffic. I can really see how residents would be put off with all of that.
However, then you look at all of the revenue that comes in. If that revenue was not there, how much more would it cost the resident to live there? If the costs doubled, would it even be possible?

I think Kim has a very strong point, and that is the passenger count is being allowed to grow way past what the island can handle. But I wouldn't lay blame with the cruise lines. I think you have to look at the local governments. If the island is being overrun, then the government needs to put a limit on how many ships can come into port. But there will be a revenue reduction, and then everyone else is going to end up paying more to cover the revenue shortage.

Let's just hope then that these inconsiderate tourists will stop taking pictures and drive faster so that the new construction in Orient Beach can be completed before Bastille Day 2016. <sarcasm off>.

The cruise lines keep building bigger & bigger ships thus more & more people aboard getting off ship. I think that's a darn good reason to blame them!

Why wouldn't they build these huge cruise ships if demand justifies it?

Rosemary,

Generally speaking, we are often very much in agreement with each other regarding most things SXM, but on this one point I disagree. Regardless of the size of the cruise liners out there, the island should have the ultimate right to limit the size (in people) of ships allowed portage and they should absolutely exercise that right.

We've been behind those huge buses trying to navigate through the narrow streets of Grand Case along with some of the steeper hills around the island and we often see the chaos created in the Sunset Bar and Grill area because of the cruise line passengers and taxis and buses servicing them while blocking the roads for people who actually live and work in that immediate area, not to mention the lack of beach space which forces so many to traverse the areas roads or walk the top of the small retaining wall with beverages in hand. It becomes potentially very unsafe for everyone.

Many of the smaller islands do this although usually based upon port depths and docking facilities and I believe Marigot does allow small cruise ships only for whatever their reasons.

And again, I have no argument for or against cruise ship passengers, but the possibility of six or seven ships including some of those huge behemoths and the huge numbers of guests make me glad I can hide away on those days here in my quiet little corner. My argument would be with the government for allowing such a huge saturation without providing them safe conditions while here.

I'm certainly no cruise expert but just because they build it, doesn't mean it has to be welcomed.

The economy of SXM is essentially based on tourism and cruises are a highly seasonal activity. From the same token there are no Alaska cruises in winter, there are much fewer Caribbean cruises in summer. In order for these humongous cruise ships to dock in SXM in peak season, SXM had to expand its cruise terminal the same way airports have to be adapted for the Airbus 380 and its 500+ passengers. So, if SXM undertakes the transformations to accomodate these ships, they would have no reason to limit the number of arrivals. They did the same with the airport a few years ago and they built the causeway to cope with the increase in road traffic so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that tourism in SXM will continue to grow, with both the good and the bad consequences associated with it.
If SXM doesn't adapt to the increase in demand, guess what, cruise lines will stop somewhere else. It's not that there are no other islands in the Caribbean where they could stop, starting with Cuba a few years from now.
My 2cts.

Thank you Pat. You said what was on my mind, but worded it much better than I probably would have.
The ship size is not the issue. It is the total number of passengers that are being allowed into port on any given day.
AND BTW, it should be noted that as a cruise passenger, I am not too thrilled about being in port with 6 other ships either! A resident can try to avoid the crowd, but wth am I supposed to do? I have things I wanted to see, 6 hours to do it, and that is where all the other ship's passengers are going as well!!!
So ultimately, in the end, everyone is negatively impacted when it gets overcrowded.

When a large enough part of your economy depends on cruise ships, you do pretty much whatever the cruise lines want. And that clearly is quantity.

Back in the day, one of the amusements was sitting at Sam's at lunch watching the cruise passengers lugging their duty-free booze back to the ship and thinking how harried they looked and how nice it was to be able to take in the island at leisure.

Pat, the island needs every person that can come in off those large ships. They will never limit the number of people because every person means dollars to them. Lots of cruisers prefer to stay on the ship as they can spend a more relaxing day there and the shops are not happy about that.If all the complaints about the cruise ships continue, they will find other welcoming ports of call, and the island will lose all the revenue.

They will always side on the idea of more revenue, with little regard to the people - be they cruise passengers or residents, and the more money they manage to garner, the more they will spend, regardless of the safety of all the people effected.

But I guess we can agree to disagree respectfully. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

Every single business in SXM on both sides makes money from Cruises.

AS the french say: "La Messe est dite".

The coffers of government do not get one cent of the money the port collects which is $10.00 a head plus I believe additional fees for Security, etc. The port is in huge debt for the building of it as well as the $50 million causeway & other things. It is a personal cash cow for certain politicians to use how they see fit. The government for years has been told by Holland & every integrity report that they need better control of government owned companies but it never happens just a lot of talk....

Actually the port costs the residents more because every time they want to do a project they raise the container fees which in turn makes every item food, clothes, etc. go up in price. Taxis used to make some money but now that government has given out so many licenses as payment for votes they have seen their income decline greatly. The stores in town will tell you that their business is down every year from the year before & I have seen some long time businesses close so I have to believe what I am being told.

I have cruised many times so I have nothing against the people on the ships I blame the government here for putting more pressure on the island & the residents with no real benefits for them. Taxes go up every year, Turnover Tax (supposed to be temp) has increased, road tax going up, price of gas almost twice what it is in Curaçao so I would like to see the benefits the residents get from the port.

32 years ago I first came here & for the first 15 years or so this island, the residents, the restaurants, the bars & Orient all did fairly well without 18,000 extra people on the island a few days a week.

Please know this is my opinion as someone who has.been a visitor first & then basically a resident.. Again I have nothing against the cruisers I have a problem how this has all been & is being handled by the powers that be......

Thank you Sharon!!!! That was the point I was attempting to make!!

Sharon--I have no factual information about where the money goes from port fees, etc., so since you're a pretty smart cookie, I'm sure you are correct about that. However, your analysis does not take into account the large numbers of people who first come on a ship and then come back to stay as a land visitor.

And me, as well. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />