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Liability While on Charter
#106005
08/23/2016 10:51 AM
08/23/2016 10:51 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 399 Pacific NW
snmhanson
OP
Traveler
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OP
Traveler
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 399
Pacific NW
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Just curious if anyone has given much thought to liability concerns while chartering a boat. It's not really clear to me what I'm covered for and what I'm not. I know the charter company has liability insurance that covers damage to the boat and certain property, but my bigger concern is liability in terms of people - both on our boat and not. Of course I wouldn't charter if I thought there was any reasonable chance that things would go seriously wrong, but still we are dealing with Mother Nature and some factors are beyond our control. Beyond that, people aren't perfect and even the best of us can make a mistake from time to time. So, what if the worse case happens and there is an accident that injures (or worse) one of my non-family crew? What are the potential ramifications and what would I be covered through the charter company insurance and/or my home insurance? Any travel policies or other insurance that would cover something like that? I know it's kind of a dark subject for a generally upbeat forum, but if anything ever did happen the last thing I want to be thinking about are financial concerns. FWIW, my job deals a lot with risk management so it's in my nature to worry about what can go wrong.
Thanks,
Matt
Last edited by snmhanson; 08/23/2016 10:56 AM.
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: snmhanson]
#106006
08/23/2016 12:20 PM
08/23/2016 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 969 NC, USA
capndar
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 969
NC, USA
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I know for CYOA we need a special permission/waiver for Anegada. Never been denied it, I am guessing we just needed to show a higher level of seamanship/navigation.
Capndar Masters 50 GT Sail/Power/Towing 3rd generation sailor
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: snmhanson]
#106009
08/23/2016 05:05 PM
08/23/2016 05:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559 Apex, NC
agrimsrud
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559
Apex, NC
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You should check with your charter company. My boat is starting it's first charter in October. As an owner I was very concerned about liability so I have read the "blah blah blah" policy as carefully as possible. At CYOA at least - and I'm assuming this is true at other charter companies as well but this is only an assumption - the charterer, charter base, and owner are all covered under the insurance policy for not only boat damage but also personal liability. The personal liability insurance has a rider policy for more personal liability insurance - intended to protect everyone involved.
So check with your charter operator - pretty sure you'll sleep better at night after you understand the built in coverage.
Life's short - sail more!
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: Twanger]
#106010
08/23/2016 05:13 PM
08/23/2016 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 50 Illinois USA
Blueprint
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 50
Illinois USA
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Ditto on StormJib.
Homeowner's and a $5 million umbrella for the liability. Property damage policy through charter company but deductible was around $6k I think. There is also a reckless or gross negligence clause in there.
My buddy who is the head charterer of four equally qualified and participating families has a hold harmless agreement and joint liability with his three friends because of they way the charter agreement is written placing all liability on the head charterer.
It is worth discussing with your attorney and insurance agent if you have any net worth.
(\_ ..(\_ .....(\_ .. .(\_ ...(\_ . (\_ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ A man with a plan is a better man than a better man without a plan.
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: Kryssa]
#106012
08/23/2016 05:33 PM
08/23/2016 05:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
StormJib
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
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Kryssa said: Reading this made me follow up on that umbrella liability policy we've been talking about for the last year. The key on the umbrella is any exclusions. Make sure you are covered for what you rent and do not own with a motor.
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: Will_L]
#106015
08/23/2016 07:48 PM
08/23/2016 07:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
StormJib
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
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Will_L said: Well ..I found it difficult for two major US insurers to cover a charter boat or land property in the BVI...they will do it for a year in our experience..and not reinsure on an umbrella policy the next. good news is that the charter co. We were with had a 5 mil liability policy . Those are deep pockets and it is unlikely an owner is going to be on the hook beyond that. Was the reason we frequently brought down fire/Carbon monoxide detectors to place on our boat. The only likely way there would be a huge judgement in BVi I. I think the original question was on the end of skipper and family chartering the boat from the owner or operator... Did you take the steps to formally have yourself named on the 3rd party insurance policy?
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: snmhanson]
#106018
08/24/2016 09:23 AM
08/24/2016 09:23 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,267 Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
tpcook
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,267
Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
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My experience with BVI liability insurance is VERY negative. I had BVI liability insurance and when there was a claim, the insurance refused to cover. (Of course giving an excuse) Cost me out of pocket a HUGE amount of money. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif" alt="" />
tpcook
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: tpcook]
#106019
08/24/2016 09:26 AM
08/24/2016 09:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 969 NC, USA
capndar
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 969
NC, USA
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Yes for minors traveling with you, you are going to have some forms signed by the parents in advance to allow for travel, medical treatment, etc. Why not get a waiver in there as well.
Capndar Masters 50 GT Sail/Power/Towing 3rd generation sailor
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: Blueprint]
#106020
08/24/2016 10:10 AM
08/24/2016 10:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,318 MD, USA
Dirichlet
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,318
MD, USA
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Blueprint said: My buddy who is the head charterer of four equally qualified and participating families has a hold harmless agreement and joint liability with his three friends because of they way the charter agreement is written placing all liability on the head charterer. I would be very interested in seeing that hold harmless agreement. Please shoot me a PM if you have the time.
... DIF all the time...
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: snmhanson]
#106022
08/24/2016 02:26 PM
08/24/2016 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559 Apex, NC
agrimsrud
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559
Apex, NC
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snmhanson said: Thanks for the responses. Reason I posted is because we are brining three of my 15 year old sons friends down with us next summer. I never gave it much thought when we had entire families with us in the past, but being responsible for three other kids safety makes me think a bit more. As I said, I wouldn't so this unless I felt it was perfectly safe, but at the same time I do make sure I have car insurance when I don't expect I'll get in an accident and home owners insurance even though I don't expect my house to burn down. I think I'll check up on my umbrella policy and see what It covers.
Matt I would check with your charter company as well and perhaps even have them send you their policy declaration if you feel unsure. It should indicate that you become a co-insured on the policy. Let's think about that for a second in context to the worrisome postings on this thread.... you become a co-insured under the same policy as the charter base operator. They feel comfortable operating a business year around year after year given this policy. Seems like you should be ok with the same risks that the charter base is willing to accept. If you are not a co-insured on the policy you should probably look for a different company to charter from IMHO.
Life's short - sail more!
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: agrimsrud]
#106023
08/24/2016 02:31 PM
08/24/2016 02:31 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559 Apex, NC
agrimsrud
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 559
Apex, NC
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Oh... and let me add one more thing...
I'm not trying to tell you to forego your own insurance. An umbrella policy is usually pretty affordable in my experience. Hard to have "too much" liability protection. Just trying to encourage you to check with your charter base 'cause you are likely already covered pretty well.
Life's short - sail more!
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: CGB]
#106025
08/24/2016 06:04 PM
08/24/2016 06:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,267 Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
tpcook
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,267
Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
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For me 8 years of litigation in USA even though the property is in the BVI. BVI insurance company just walked away and said sue us.
Just because the liability was in the BVI does not bring the case to the BVI. Plaintiffs chose where the litigation will take place. There were able to choose the USA as I used the internet to advertise. SUCKS! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/smashpc.gif" alt="" />
tpcook
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: tpcook]
#106026
08/24/2016 06:26 PM
08/24/2016 06:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
StormJib
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
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tpcook said: For me 8 years of litigation in USA even though the property is in the BVI. BVI insurance company just walked away and said sue us.
Just because the liability was in the BVI does not bring the case to the BVI. Plaintiffs chose where the litigation will take place. There were able to choose the USA as I used the internet to advertise. SUCKS! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/smashpc.gif" alt="" /> I do not want to confuse business insurance with personal liability. My original point is you never know who is going to accuse you or a family member of doing some damage. We should all have a solid general liability policy that will hire the right lawyer to defend us wherever we are accused. Life is not just boats in the BVI. Let's say we do hire a boat with the best possible insurance in the USVI. At some point in the travels we move the boat to the BVI. Following the advice of many on this forum we rent a vehicle at one of out island stops. Dad or Mom quickly rent the local vehicle. Somewhere along the day one of the minors with us harms a local on a moped using the vehicle Mom or Dad rented. Who sorts that out for you? The Moorings or like policy? Or your personal liability underwriter or your personal credit card/wire transfer. I encourage you to not look at insurance as a one trip thing. You should have a legal defense and liability underwriter for anything someone might try to accuse you or a family member of at home, school, or anyplace a plane or boat might bring you.
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: GeorgeC1]
#106028
08/25/2016 10:47 AM
08/25/2016 10:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,267 Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
tpcook
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,267
Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
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George, I have learned that the best way to protect assets is to have them in separate trusts. i.e. you no longer own them and so they cannot be attached in litigation. So if you are sued personally in the BVI for an accident, your home in the USA is in a trust which cannot be attached. Same with a yacht, have it in a corporation or a trust. That's life today.
tpcook
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Re: Liability While on Charter
[Re: tpcook]
#106029
08/25/2016 11:33 AM
08/25/2016 11:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
StormJib
Traveler
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Traveler
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,049
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tpcook said: George, I have learned that the best way to protect assets is to have them in separate trusts. i.e. you no longer own them and so they cannot be attached in litigation. So if you are sued personally in the BVI for an accident, your home in the USA is in a trust which cannot be attached. Same with a yacht, have it in a corporation or a trust. That's life today. That can be a good hedge against risk. What that style alone does not do is arm you with good defense attorneys when you are accused of some damage. That is why I vote for a solid global liability umbrella that will defend you at no cost to you with the right attorneys for the jurisdiction you are summoned from. The costs to source your own one off legal counsel can be unmeasurable. When you create multiple entities you may find yourself forced to insure each one of those entities individually at far greater cost. I hope you have a really good set of lawyers building those trust walls for you.
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