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Do you own the boat you charter? #67467
09/08/2015 12:37 PM
09/08/2015 12:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 62
Seattle, WA
moonhat Offline OP
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My husband and I are considering the option of buying a boat and having it as a charter that others charter (I am not sure what this is technically called), and I'm curious, how many of you do this (or have done this and now have your boat to yourself)? Is it stressful? A good idea? A bad one? I'd love to hear opinions or experiences at all, thanks!
Liz

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Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: moonhat] #67468
09/08/2015 12:41 PM
09/08/2015 12:41 PM
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GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Offline
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There are quite a few of us who own boats in Charter. I recommend you go to sailonline.com for info geared to ownership. I will also PM you my contact info as I have owned boats with 4 different charter companies. One piece of advice is to be skeptical of plans that promise big tax savings.
G

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: GeorgeC1] #67469
09/08/2015 03:03 PM
09/08/2015 03:03 PM
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StormJib Offline
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It may be the lowest cost way to tell your friends you have a boat in the islands. You will not make any money. The boat/asset will depreciate. It is a hobby, a way to have some fun nothing more.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: StormJib] #67470
09/08/2015 03:16 PM
09/08/2015 03:16 PM
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Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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If you want to own a boat and have it rented out to help cover the costs of ownership and help pay it off, then ownership can be great.

We've had two goals -

1. Charter frequently (pretty much - until this year) we've taken all our vacation time chartering. Only reason we had a change this year is due to our son who is 7 months old now and us taking time off earlier this year after he was born. Still got one trip in though and are planning another in November.

2. We want to spend time living on a boat in the future. So we've got the boat and a good portion of it is being paid off by it being in charter.

We've used our boat once - for 2 reasons. Our boat is in St. Lucia and we enjoy sailing and diving in the BVI and we have made great use of our owner benefits and have upgraded to a Catamaran about 80% of the time we've chartered.

As George said, check out sailonline - lots of great info there.

StormJib is correct, its not a way to make money, but the same could be said of home ownership yet lots of people look very highly at home ownership. So figure out if it works for you and if it does, go for it.

The one thing I woudl have done differently is to have put a larger down payment on it and to have had the loan for fewer years. In our case the revenue is guaranteed, so we could have had it be a bit higher and just known we'd be contributing each month. This would give you a much lower balance at the end of the program.

Feel free to PM me with any specifics.


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67471
09/08/2015 07:24 PM
09/08/2015 07:24 PM
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Just remember that when you charter your boat, it just might be treated like a rental car: Last year we saw a convoy of four 474 PC's pull into Leverick. One of them smashed into the dock so hard that he tore some of the dock stanchions free. And then laughed about it! So it could be pretty disheartening when you see your investment battered up from incompetent handling when you yourself are sooooo careful.

Last edited by 706jim; 09/08/2015 07:25 PM.
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: 706jim] #67472
09/08/2015 08:18 PM
09/08/2015 08:18 PM
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Posts: 6,100
Maryland
Twanger Offline
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We just charter what and when we want.
We only go 10 days a year.
If that was 50 days a year the situation would be much different.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: Twanger] #67473
09/08/2015 09:02 PM
09/08/2015 09:02 PM
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Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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With the number of people here that charter frequently - someone should see about putting together a TTOL LLC for boat ownership. If we didn't own already, I'd look into seeing who was interested myself.


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67474
09/08/2015 09:32 PM
09/08/2015 09:32 PM
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Posts: 2,151
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
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That's a great idea Matt.


Warren S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 50 (winner of best crewed yacht under 55 feet at the St. Thomas crewed yacht boat show).

https://www.cyabrochure.com/ebn/2307/pdyrX/6642/4///
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67475
09/08/2015 09:39 PM
09/08/2015 09:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,018
annap, MD/BVI-Nanny Cay
hallucination Offline
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Just do not fall into the "you will make money" trap. Everybody else makes money.
you will just defray costs.

People will ABUSE your boat, if you are okay with that....the better the boat, the more they pay for the "privilege"

The charter company will FIGHT your requests for a checkout captain for ALL charters.

If the boat is returned broken by a charterer, you will be the first person they try to collect from, unless it is brazenly damaged.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: hallucination] #67476
09/08/2015 10:09 PM
09/08/2015 10:09 PM
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Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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Don't forget - not all charter companies are equal. What hallucination says is accurate for many companies, but not for Moorings/Sunsail (and perhaps others) as you pay nothing during the charter contract. They take care of all maintenance..etc. The only downside to this is that you can't customize your boat - you can choose from the models they offer, but they all have the same features.

Personally, I don't see that as a big drawback since the more extras you have, the more things people can break, so you can just add the extras once it comes out of charter as the majority aren't needed when chartering.

The other thing to consider is having your boat be a crewed boat - these get taken care of much better.


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: hallucination] #67477
09/08/2015 10:22 PM
09/08/2015 10:22 PM
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StormJib Offline
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You should also figure charter boats can be easily used 200 days a year. Virtually all those days will be 24 hour days. In most cases the boat will be heavily loaded, all the bunks, all the heads. More booze than normal will be involved. The users will be hot and sweaty much of the time. Many will have worse than no idea what they are doing. A boat in the slip at home ia used only a few days a year in most cases. Imagine leaving your boat open for all you friends to use at their will at home. Chances are the boat in charter will get far greater use coupled with island sun and salt water everywhere.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: StormJib] #67478
09/09/2015 02:30 AM
09/09/2015 02:30 AM
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Posts: 2,429
Villa Euphoria Leverick Bay, P...
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We have had a very good experience owning. After sailing with TMM for 10 years we took the plunge and bought a Beneteau 40 CC with Sunsail. We went for the guaranteed income plan which more than covered our mortgage.
After five years, Sunsail fully restored the boat to a very high standard. We then moved her to BVI Yacht Charters for another five years. They too did a great job maintaining her and it was relatively pain free to sell her after 10 years.
We got all of our money back from the original deposit and made a small profit. The best part was that we sailed on average three weeks a year in the BVI for ten years for nothing, and enjoyed a modest tax advantage because of depreciation.
After being without a boat for a year, I missed having one built to my specs so we took the plunge again. This time with TMM and our boat is a Mahe 36 catamaran.
In both instances, I purposefully selected boats suited to two couples, but easily handled by just two of us. I did this because I didn't want a party boat. More cabins equals more people, more damage, more parties.
So far it has worked. Pick the right boat ane think about keeping it in charter for 10 years.
If you have other questions, feel free to PM me. Good luck.


Mike
"The journey is the thing." Homer
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67479
09/09/2015 09:06 AM
09/09/2015 09:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,951
St. John, USVI
RickG Online content
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Capt. Jay and I went the USVI LLC route for our non-charter boat ownership. The Reef Song have a different approach. You need to pick your partners carefully. There's nothing keeping you from creating a partnership to go the traditional charter ownership route.

Cheers, RickG


S/V Echoes, 2003 Beneteau 423
Grenada
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67480
09/09/2015 11:01 AM
09/09/2015 11:01 AM
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Please be aware that all charter companies are not the same and there are vast differences in the programs they offer. As an employee of TMM Yacht Charters I am very confident in our simple, straightforward, time-tested program. I realize this forum is not to induce sales but I welcome any potential charter boat owners to contact me for honest answers regarding being an owner in our fleet.
cell 284-340-6393
email don@sailtmm.com

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: donsellsyachts] #67481
09/09/2015 12:15 PM
09/09/2015 12:15 PM
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Posts: 62
Seattle, WA
moonhat Offline OP
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wow, many different answers and opinions, thank you! We probably will PM some of you with questions. Overall though, it now doesn't sound as appealing as when we first discussed it...

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: moonhat] #67482
09/09/2015 12:41 PM
09/09/2015 12:41 PM
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Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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So what made it sound appealing to you in the first place?

In addition to gathering some more info, you should also reach out to some of the companies to get more info as well.


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67483
09/09/2015 03:09 PM
09/09/2015 03:09 PM
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Posts: 62
Seattle, WA
moonhat Offline OP
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We are looking to retire, and move on to a boat in 7~10 years. We had read articles talking about boats in charter having all maintenance, expenses, and the mortgage covered.
I was was assuming these where 10 year mortgages, and we'd be close to having the boat paid off at retirement. But I am guessing now, that is not the case.

Do you need a 30 year mortgage with 20~25% down to have your payments covered? Or maybe a better question, what can you expect as far as cash from the charter company yearly? ~8% of the purchase price?

While I see how ownership time would be a huge plus, if we had the ability to use it. I think we would struggle to use 10 days a year.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: moonhat] #67484
09/09/2015 03:18 PM
09/09/2015 03:18 PM
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GeorgeC1 Offline
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We have our boat on a 10 year loan. The monthly payment received is within 100 dollars of the payment. Add in sold owners time and you can pay the boat off quicker.
G

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: GeorgeC1] #67485
09/09/2015 03:29 PM
09/09/2015 03:29 PM
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Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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The loan can vary - Most quotes I've seen from Moorings are 15 years. But you can come up with other financing options as well. With their options, their payment to you over the 5 years is equal or greater than your mortgage payment. IF you want to see real numbers, reach out and get a quote on a boat you are interested in.

Only using 10 days a year though, it may not be worth it, but that's really a personal decision. If having a good portion of the boat paid off by charter use is what you want, then it could benefit you still. You'd just want to sell as much time as you can (maybe see if you can negotiate more) and put that towards the mortgage..


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: moonhat] #67486
09/09/2015 04:27 PM
09/09/2015 04:27 PM
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Posts: 245
Charlotte
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Knotthead Offline
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Just my opinion but if you only can use a boat 10 days a year, I think you probably come out better just chartering for now. Then maybe buy something 7 or 8 years old when you are ready to retire and use it more. We pulled the trigger and bought a used boat this year that is in a charter fleet, but that was after we finally made room in our lives for 4 - 6 weeks a year on the boat. This was after 12 years of chartering 1 or 2 weeks a year. The used boat let me get something that I could pay for and not worry about covering the loan payments. I don't like the idea of borrowing money on depreciating assets.

So far so good, looking forward to my next trip down in 3 weeks.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: Knotthead] #67487
09/09/2015 07:30 PM
09/09/2015 07:30 PM
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Posts: 1,212
JAX
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No deal works for just 10 days a year. Rent it, don't buy it.
I know guys who have done Two five year deals with Moorings and Sunsail. They only make it work with 10+ Weeks of time...maximized with the short booking window.

Most owners are never on "their"boat. They exchange for different location and different size/type of boats.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: Knotthead] #67488
09/09/2015 07:32 PM
09/09/2015 07:32 PM
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Macon, Georgia
GlennA Offline
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One advantage of a 10 year over a 15 year mortgage is that you wil be less upside down after it comes out of Moorings charter at year 5.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: jphart] #67489
09/09/2015 11:49 PM
09/09/2015 11:49 PM
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Posts: 5,720
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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Quote
jphart said:
No deal works for just 10 days a year. Rent it, don't buy it.
I know guys who have done Two five year deals with Moorings and Sunsail. They only make it work with 10+ Weeks of time...maximized with the short booking window.

Most owners are never on "their"boat. They exchange for different location and different size/type of boats.


It could work from a financial aspect of having someone else pay it off - all depending upon the boat.

Take a Cat - you can sell time pocketing about $6k per week. So that's an extra $12k a year to go towards principal on the loan giving an extra $60k towards principal while in charter. So in addition to having 1/3 to 1/4 of the boat paid off in the charter, you get that extra $60k. Plus (again assuming a cat) $10k in charter time a year (based on 10 days) - another $50k savings..

Gotta compare to what it would cost to buy the same boat just coming out of charter, but I think it could be feasible depending on the circumstances.


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67490
09/12/2015 11:18 AM
09/12/2015 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 283
Miami, FL
Michel_Benarrosh Offline
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Hi all: this is Michel Benarrosh from sailonline.com.
This is probably one of the 2 or 3 oldest topics in the charter forums.
I will try to post more on this as i do every 2 or 3 years when the topic surfaces -again.

However, I MUST say something hugely important - probably my rule #1 in the process of purchasing - or not - a charter boat.
Whatever you do, DO NOT CONTRACT A MORTGAGE THAT IS MORE THAN 10 YEARS (12 is already a stretch). As a matter of fact, in France where the banking system is much more controlled, you cannot get a marine mortgage that has more than a 7-year term.
Here, some charter companies suggest 15 or even 20 year-mortgage. That, IMHO, is equivalent to financial assassination, for the sole purpose of making a sale to an unsuspecting buyer.
Here is why: Say you purchase a boat with the intention of keeping the boat for 10 or 15 years. You contract a 15-year mortgage. It SEEMS to make sense so far.
Now, say after 4 years, a totally unexpected event (health, financial ... whatever) occurs in your life. Because of that event, you are FORCED to sell the boat.
That is when all hell breaks loose: because of the way the boat resale market works (trust me on this), you are absolutely GUARANTEED that the REAL market value of your boat (not some wishful thinking value the original salesman made you believe) will be so much upside down with mortgage payoff amount, that you will find yourself in a terrible predicament. With no way out if you don't have the cash in hand to cover the difference MORTGAGE PAYOFF - BOAT SALE PROCEEDS

I have seen this happen too many times to even count in my marine business (brokerage, consulting, new boat sales etc...) and the outcome is very, very ugly for these families.

A boat is never EVER a reason to face a financial crisis. A boat purchase has to be a happy event, done with a full understanding of all components. So like in any other large purchase, be financially wise and use your common sense. And I promise you it will be the platform to a great lifestyle.

Cheers to all!

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: Michel_Benarrosh] #67491
09/12/2015 12:30 PM
09/12/2015 12:30 PM
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StormJib Offline
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I am glad buying charter boats works out for some. I am also thankful that for more than 30 years others have used their cash and credit guarantees to fund buying new boats around the world for me to use. Thank You! I am very grateful.

Here is another angle to consider. If using debt to finance new charter boat purchases made profit and loss sense? The charter boat operators would use the public markets and bonds to finance the acquisition of the assets they need to succeed in business. Reality is the value of the boats coupled with the expense to operate them in general does not fall in line with the market prices to rent them. So we get to rent yachts below the actual cost at the expense of the owners and their credit. The operators take a percentage off the top to reward their shareholders.

There are exceptions the right boat in the right market may pay out. The same could be true or even better(maybe much better) if you bought the right condo in the right place, at the right time. Consider this... Imagine and earthquake, terrible hurricane, air travel disruption...? Many charter boats could go without revenue or greatly discounted revenue for a period of time. Anyone who signs a guarantee to pay a yacht mortgage should be prepared to pay all that note themselves until the boat can be liquidated. Real Estate may explode in value. A boat never will. In fact with the price of oil falling. The new boats that are made completely of oil(fiberglass) could fall. Only time will tell if and when the market adjust here.

For us Americans having a boat in charter can be the lowest cost way to tell your friends you have a boat in the islands. For other non US tax jurisdictions. There may be some strong tax incentives for high income earners. In the Moorings heyday on country with a 90 percent personal income tax allowed three year depreciation deductions with no recapture on the sale of the rental investment. The owner could buy the new boat deducted 90 percent of the cost over three years then sell it for no tax liability. Sadly we do no do that in the US. I look forward to your new yacht purchase soon! We always charter the newest and largest boat we can find for our dates. In my opinion if it flies or floats you are better off renting.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: StormJib] #67492
09/12/2015 05:57 PM
09/12/2015 05:57 PM
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Posts: 283
Miami, FL
Michel_Benarrosh Offline
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Stormjib:

You are absolutely correct, except for one detail: this is a pleasure and a lifestyle that is second to none (i know, I have owned 3 charter boats). You cannot equate this to investing or home ownership. I am struck by the fact that nowadays, 95% of boat buyers I meet or advise or transact with, think about the financial aspects first. What about sailing and pride/pleasure of ownership?? What about the dream??

Again, it is a pleasure, and all pleasures have a price. If not there would be no luxury cars (think they make sense?), 1st class traveling, luxury clothing etc... You get the idea. Each one of us puts a different price on our pleasure, granted, but the rewards, when the whole process is done correctly, are absolutely beautiful.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: Michel_Benarrosh] #67493
09/12/2015 06:11 PM
09/12/2015 06:11 PM
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Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
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There's a simple reason the charter companies don't own the boats - the capital expense needed up front.


Matt
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67494
09/12/2015 06:48 PM
09/12/2015 06:48 PM
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GeorgeC1 Offline
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That and they generate a significant profit on the initial sale of the boat.
G

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: GeorgeC1] #67495
09/12/2015 08:17 PM
09/12/2015 08:17 PM
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Posts: 10,213
GJ, CO S/V Long Overdue
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and to take a different tack, owning privately has it's rewards as Michel says, the pride and pleasure of ownership. I know my fixed expenses and other then major repairs(non so far) I can live with it. Everything is on the boat, clothes, bathroom stuff, snorkel gear and for me most important scuba equipment and tanks. We can easily go down for a month with a backpack.

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: sail2wind] #67496
09/12/2015 08:46 PM
09/12/2015 08:46 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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We don't charter. keeping our boat in the bvi does not make sense from a financial perspective unless your are down a lot of weeks.

But everytime we arrive in bvi and walk down the dock to the boat it feels great.

The quality family time is priceless.

How do you put a price on that?

For everything else, including chartering, there is MasterCard.


Warren S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 50 (winner of best crewed yacht under 55 feet at the St. Thomas crewed yacht boat show).

https://www.cyabrochure.com/ebn/2307/pdyrX/6642/4///
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: warren460] #67497
09/13/2015 02:09 AM
09/13/2015 02:09 AM
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Posts: 10,213
GJ, CO S/V Long Overdue
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my wife says when her barefeet touch the gelcoat, her stress level drops to an ahhhh level

Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: sail2wind] #67498
09/13/2015 01:00 PM
09/13/2015 01:00 PM
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Posts: 1,450
Napa, California
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Remove the emotion from your decision, take a calculator and sit down with your banker or advisor. The decision to put a boat into charter becomes very clear.


It's not what you've got, it's what you give, it's not the life you choose, it's the life you live.
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: maytrix] #67499
09/13/2015 01:58 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Posts: 2,151
Ontario, Canada
If you can easily afford it, and it's a very strong passion, don't forget to factor in that in the long run, we are all dead.


Warren S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 50 (winner of best crewed yacht under 55 feet at the St. Thomas crewed yacht boat show).

https://www.cyabrochure.com/ebn/2307/pdyrX/6642/4///
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: warren460] #67500
09/13/2015 04:47 PM
09/13/2015 04:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,450
Napa, California
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Teammac Offline
Traveler
Teammac  Offline
Traveler
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,450
Napa, California
We did not miss out on any sailing. It was simply better for us to continue to charter, then purchase when the charter boat we wanted to own came out of charter. Saved a ton of money and we were able to get the pick of the litter. Also, from the time we would have put a boat into charter, and the time to purchase arrived, our boat choice changed. We were not stuck with a boat we thought we wanted six years previous. Now we will keep this boat on a ten year plan, then re-evaluate our position and decide to sell it or continue to sail. We bought it near the bottom of its value so even in those ten years we should not lose more than 15%, as long as we do our due diligence with maintenance, etc.


It's not what you've got, it's what you give, it's not the life you choose, it's the life you live.
Re: Do you own the boat you charter? [Re: Teammac] #67501
09/14/2015 09:12 PM
09/14/2015 09:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 144
We come from the land of ice a...
S
Subaqua Offline
Traveler
Subaqua  Offline
Traveler
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 144
We come from the land of ice a...
We charter our own boat about 60-70% of the time. When we travel out of a different base we usually charter a boat identical to ours but on occasion we will upgrade to a larger boat.
Owning and chartering works great for us.. but we are in the fortunate group that could be sure the boat $ balance at the end of contract is $0.


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