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Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: sail445] #241075
11/30/2020 09:53 PM
11/30/2020 09:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 76,795
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
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Apparently the court date for these folks was delayed till later on in the week, not sure why. Anyone have any info? By that time a 14 day quarantine would have expired, no??

Link


Carol Hill
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Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241076
11/30/2020 09:56 PM
11/30/2020 09:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 727
Georgia & South Carolina
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Deepcut Offline
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Georgia & South Carolina
Not taking up for the captain(Professional captain?) but on what site would the typical charter captain know that this exclusion zone had been set?
I am a pilot and familiar with NOTAMS to airmen, but unsure regarding similar notices for seamen.


Wes
s/v Sea Tiger (2021 Lagoon 46)
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241078
11/30/2020 10:32 PM
11/30/2020 10:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,996
Macon, Georgia
GlennA Offline
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There was a rough description of the exclusion boundaries on Noonsite. The boundary that they crossed was a line between West End point and the western most point on Jost. I think some confusion is that 1.5 NM inside BVI waters is not the same as being inside the exclusion zone. Latest seeming reliable info I have is they were "NE of Great Thatch about 1.5nm inside BVI waters starting to tack through the Narrows". That statement is a bit ambiguous but here is a worse case SWAG.

I plotted a line 1.5 nm north of the boundary as indicated on Imray A231 and a line NE from the center of Great Thatch and they cross about 1/4 NM inside the exclusion zone. That is just about where a cat on an ENE course would tack to make the Narrows. A mono would probably tack a little sooner.

Any legal hounds out there might find it interesting to review UN Convention on Laws of the Seas (UNCLOS) Articles 19 and 25. If this were to happen to someone with very deep pockets and a strong sense of principles (or retribution) he could cause the BVI government considerable pain.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241079
12/01/2020 12:58 AM
12/01/2020 12:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,111
St. Lucia
Zanshin Offline
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St. Lucia
GlennA - I've already referenced the UNCLOS in this thread. Unfortunately, the exclusion zone preempts that. Just try to sail through a prohibited zone marked on the charts in U.S. waters and you'll get stopped there in a heartbeat - but unless there are other factors involved they won't throw you in the brig or fine you $20K or impound the boat.

I just hope that the exclusion zone is lifted as it will put a huge damper on any sailing activities in that area.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241085
12/01/2020 06:52 AM
12/01/2020 06:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,042
Washington DC
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bailau Offline
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I guess I would wonder if you are Maho Bay as they claimed and want to go to Leinster Bay to snorkel as people have indicated why you are even putting the sails up....

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241099
12/01/2020 10:27 AM
12/01/2020 10:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 39
Bucks County, PA
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Marie Offline
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It made the New York Post yesterday. https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/us-boaters-detained-for-sailing-into-british-virgin-islands-seas/. Yes, when we go from Maho to Leinster we motor not sail around Mary Point and give it a wide berth because of how rocky and craggy it is. Ok, so the hostages sailed over according to their testimony. If what they say is true, and they just entered into BVI waters 1.5 nm as they were going around Mary Point, then give them a warning, a stern warning. Don't incarcerate them and charge them $20,000! They were not entering land and about to spread covid on the island. By my count this is the 13th day of captivity. Why was yesterday's hearing delayed?

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: Marie] #241100
12/01/2020 10:33 AM
12/01/2020 10:33 AM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 76,795
Central Florida!
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Don't know why the hearing was delayed, but according to my calculation if it's the end of the week, the 14 day quarantine would have expired. Perhaps they made some deal that they wouldn't actually charge them with anything if the clear the 14 days quarantine and then they will just let them go at that point??


Carol Hill
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241129
12/01/2020 12:46 PM
12/01/2020 12:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,111
St. Lucia
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Fox News is carrying it as well at https://www.foxnews.com/world/ameri...-sailing-in-british-virgin-island-waters

Certainly not good advertising for "BVILove"

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: Zanshin] #241132
12/01/2020 12:49 PM
12/01/2020 12:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 874
Northern Virginia
ecm56 Offline
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Whether the BVI is legally correct or not, they have lost the public relations war.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241149
12/01/2020 02:27 PM
12/01/2020 02:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,148
Memphis, BVI, CT
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RatmansWife Offline
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^^ So true.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241156
12/01/2020 03:57 PM
12/01/2020 03:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,377
Ill, USA
Will_L Offline
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Politicians often do some stupid things in a panic or trying to make one size fit all. We’ve seen that in the US and I suspect the same in this instance. After having traffic back and forth to St. Thomas, certainly some well publicized involving drugs and weapons, and bringing Covid along, they decided to clamp down on security and expended resources to do it.

So they “caught” two old couples on a tack in a sailboat with no contraband and no intention of going ashore and in their one size fits all mindset, forced them ashore and have essentially held them hostage for many days.

They may as some claim be perfectly within their rights in doing so and their claim overrides innocent passage, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t dumb as a box of hammers.

The bvi has often hit people hard in the pocketbook for fishing in their waters without permits but the public view of this insistence on 20,000 $ in cash, appears to be a shakedown. It has all the markings of a small town catching someone for minor traffic violations and locking em up until they paid thousands in ransom, er fines.

But in a country beset with a terrible economy, with banking suffering before tourism tanked and obviously not great political leadership as evidenced by the disasterous December 1 reopening and letting this fiasco get out of hand, those leaders seem to be doubling down on dumb.

The quicker they clear this up for “humanitarian concerns” , the less damage to their brand. Never go broke betting on a bureaucrat to do something stupid and compounding it. It will be forgotten but will hurt on the margin and didn’t have to happen.

Last edited by Will_L; 12/01/2020 08:57 PM.
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: Marie] #241161
12/01/2020 04:32 PM
12/01/2020 04:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,133
Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
tpcook Offline
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Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
Also on Goggle News, so around the world. Really bad P.R.


tpcook
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241162
12/01/2020 04:39 PM
12/01/2020 04:39 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 871
Louisville, KY
NoelHall Offline
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One of the crew members is posting on Facebook (Jeanne). She posted yesterday afternoon that a Covid test is now required before the captain appears in court. She posted a picture of their hotel room, which she said is 'bug free and has air conditioning', and apparently they have access to the Internet. The picture reflects the room to be a typical 3 star BVI hotel room. Her comments seem to suggest they are confined to the room, have an attorney, but can't seem to get a 'straight answer' to what is going to happen and when. Just what I have summarized from the comments, I have no personal information.

It appears she updated Facebook this morning, stating they had a Covid test and are scheduled to appear in court at 2:00 this afternoon.

Last edited by NoelHall; 12/01/2020 04:44 PM.

Noel Hall
"It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."

www.noelhall.com
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241164
12/01/2020 04:59 PM
12/01/2020 04:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 569
Knoxville, TN
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The BVI has a reputation for treating tourists poorly... We typically ignore that because of the pristine sailing grounds... But, there have been multiple incidents of tourists ending up in the “gut”. I remember about 10 years ago they imprisoned a US citizen for fishing in BVI waters and fined him $45,000. Eerily similar... Reminds me of Mexico when police would stop you for “speeding” and demand cash. Extortion. It’s common in corrupt countries...

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news/american-jailed-for-fishing-in-the-bvi

Last edited by rundugrun; 12/01/2020 05:19 PM.


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Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: rundugrun] #241165
12/01/2020 05:29 PM
12/01/2020 05:29 PM
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Posts: 3,001
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sail445 Offline
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Originally Posted by rundugrun
The BVI has a reputation for treating tourists poorly... We typically ignore that because of the pristine sailing grounds... But, there have been multiple incidents of tourists ending up in the “gut”. I remember about 10 years ago they imprisoned a US citizen for fishing in BVI waters and fined him $45,000. Eerily similar... Reminds me of Mexico when police would stop you for “speeding” and demand cash. Extortion. It’s common in corrupt countries...

https://www.soundingsonline.com/news/american-jailed-for-fishing-in-the-bvi

You are so correct because the average charterer goes there and the first thing they do is Kiss up to people and start handing them $20 tips for just breathing or putting a smile on their faces.
After decades the locals think all tourists are idiots and easy.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: sail445] #241166
12/01/2020 06:01 PM
12/01/2020 06:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 39
Bucks County, PA
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Marie Offline
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Sail445, the post you are replying to is talking about the BVI government while you are talking about workers. It has been our experience to tip more generously since Irma. The folks there suffered so very much because of Irma.

Sorry Carol....I’m off topic but couldn’t resist.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241176
12/01/2020 08:46 PM
12/01/2020 08:46 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,499
An island state of mind
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An island state of mind

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241178
12/01/2020 09:11 PM
12/01/2020 09:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,042
Washington DC
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bailau Offline
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"I know the borders are closed but I didn't touch land..."

I think they need a better captain next time

Glad they had a small fine relatively speaking

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241179
12/01/2020 09:28 PM
12/01/2020 09:28 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 580
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Hey BVILOVE - Was all this worldwide negative press really worth a $4000 fine? In the name of protecting the BVI from COVID, you forced them to land on your shores. You could have had your border patrol issue a warning and escort them for 10 minutes back to the water border.

At least it served to momentarily distract the public's attention from the 1/4 Billion dollar drug bust or Fahie's restart of the $150M+ airport runway expansion into Trellis Bay (despite campaign promises to expand ferry service).

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241225
12/02/2020 11:06 AM
12/02/2020 11:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 819
Middleburg, VA
cwoody Offline
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FOX News has now picked this up.


Chuck W.
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Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241234
12/02/2020 12:08 PM
12/02/2020 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,242
Saint Thomas, USVI
CaptainJay Offline OP
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CaptainJay  Offline OP
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Saint Thomas, USVI
This was the first boat that was stopped. The captains own words.

https://sailinganarchy.com/2020/12/...G0Fg6DmoU4JUgSDJXFYKwdIEiVa3TxVxGpbr6PMM

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241241
12/02/2020 12:49 PM
12/02/2020 12:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 76,795
Central Florida!
Carol_Hill Offline
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Jay--thanks for the link. If you hear anything else as far as an update, please let us know.


Carol Hill
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241254
12/02/2020 02:08 PM
12/02/2020 02:08 PM
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Posts: 871
Louisville, KY
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I'll admit, I'm only a novice credit card captain. The definition of 'passage' in my mind is departing point 'A' and headed to 'point 'B. I'm not sure I understand how leaving St. Thomas and headed to St. Francis Bay would typically include a 'fly by' of the Soggy Dollar Bar on Jost Van Dyke. It sounds more like a pleasure sail in the waters of a foreign country with no intent of actually stopping. I would agree the consequences seem very steep for conduct that was previously condoned, although a tough time to 'assume' anything in respect to the possibility of new restrictions in the territorial waters of any Caribbean country due to Covid-19. I am sorry and sympathize with the crews of both boats, although it has certainly sent a very publicized message to anyone thinking of innocently sailing into foreign waters until this virus is behind us. Just my personal comment, I'm not a source of knowledge or authority of anything.


Noel Hall
"It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."

www.noelhall.com
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241255
12/02/2020 02:26 PM
12/02/2020 02:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,940
Cane Garden Bay, Tortola
JasonHelmbrecht Offline
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They got off easy with a $1k fine each. When the borders first reopened, the cost to quarantine in the government hotels was around $3k for non-belongers. They should have had to pay that as well.


JasonHelmbrecht
Coconut Breeze Villas
Cane Garden Bay
reservations@coconutbreezevillas.com
www.coconutbreezevillas.com
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241286
12/02/2020 05:51 PM
12/02/2020 05:51 PM
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Posts: 3,001
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sail445 Offline
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Originally Posted by CaptainJay
This was the first boat that was stopped. The captains own words.

https://sailinganarchy.com/2020/12/...G0Fg6DmoU4JUgSDJXFYKwdIEiVa3TxVxGpbr6PMM

So typical that the so-called authorities don’t know the law and definitely don’t have a clue on how to interpret it.
But on the positive side if they knew and strictly adhered to the law these beautiful islands would turn into a crowded strict metropolis

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: JasonHelmbrecht] #241292
12/02/2020 06:26 PM
12/02/2020 06:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 43
Charlotte, NC
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TC42 Offline
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So the fine was originally $20,000 and it was reduced to $4,000?

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: JasonHelmbrecht] #241294
12/02/2020 07:01 PM
12/02/2020 07:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,377
Ill, USA
Will_L Offline
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Ill, USA
Perhaps, but the money they would get charging for quarantine like the $4000 in fines would not pay for the horribly bad publicity. Besides they might have opened themselves up to cruel and unusual punishment incarcerating two long married couples in one dingy hotel room. smile

Though way too late someone wiser than those who forced the boat ashore, demanded $20,000 cash, threw 4 elderly US citizens in a crappy room for several days, told the bureaucrats to “Stop digging”.

I’m sure after scamming 20k off the sailor mentioned above who didn’t raise a ruckus, they thought it would be a good revenue source. Oops

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241296
12/02/2020 07:11 PM
12/02/2020 07:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,974
Buffalo, NY
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From the capt of the Sailing Anarchy boat: "Having only just arrived in-territory, I had no benefit of this “common knowledge”. Instead, they detained us ashore where, if we were COVID positive, we could expose their citizens to the disease. No, this detention and fine via a mis-application of law, is tantamount to piracy and extortion; a money grab of the worst sort under the guise of legitimate government action perpetrated against innocent yachtsmen. " ...BINGO

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241310
12/03/2020 03:39 AM
12/03/2020 03:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,996
Macon, Georgia
GlennA Offline
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This is why I said that someone with deep pockets and a strong sense of honor (or retribution) could cause the BVI government a great deal of pain. The government did not file a proper notice. "Local knowledge", a press conference or an internet post are not proper notice. And worse, if he kept his GPS track, he can show that he was outside the line of exclusion when he was stopped.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: Will_L] #241314
12/03/2020 05:18 AM
12/03/2020 05:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,906
U.K. and Spain
Jeannius Online content
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Originally Posted by Will_L
Besides they might have opened themselves up to cruel and unusual punishment incarcerating two long married couples in one dingy hotel room. smile


I don't think that one will work Will. Sailors willingly put themselves in small, cramped, dingy places with other people all the time, often while experiencing conditions similar to waterboarding and
paying a fortune for the privilege grin

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: JasonHelmbrecht] #241451
12/03/2020 04:17 PM
12/03/2020 04:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 569
Knoxville, TN
rundugrun Offline
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Originally Posted by JasonHelmbrecht
They got off easy with a $1k fine each. When the borders first reopened, the cost to quarantine in the government hotels was around $3k for non-belongers. They should have had to pay that as well.


Jason - Did you even read the account? They were *outside* the exclusion zone. They were wrongfully detained and therefore shouldn’t have had to pay any fine at all. Unfortunately, this type of behavior is becoming common in the corrupt BVI.

https://sailinganarchy.com/2020/12/...G0Fg6DmoU4JUgSDJXFYKwdIEiVa3TxVxGpbr6PMM

Last edited by rundugrun; 12/03/2020 04:22 PM.


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Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241454
12/03/2020 04:37 PM
12/03/2020 04:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,940
Cane Garden Bay, Tortola
JasonHelmbrecht Offline
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Cane Garden Bay, Tortola
Yes, I did but thanks for showing you didn't.

We're talking about 2 different boats. The boat that was fined $20k claims to have not been in the exclusion zone but admits he was in BVI waters. He chose to pay his fine immediately, and left for the USVI. He will follow due process to try and have it reversed. He was still in BVI waters so I'm not sure how it will go for him.

The boat that was held, quarantined, and fined $1000 each was 2 miles over the border (closed border), admitted it, and had their day in court.


JasonHelmbrecht
Coconut Breeze Villas
Cane Garden Bay
reservations@coconutbreezevillas.com
www.coconutbreezevillas.com
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241455
12/03/2020 04:53 PM
12/03/2020 04:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,855
Maine
Breeze Offline
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Maine
There is a history behind the term " Ugly American", so who wants to go abroad and be one ?

Being a guest has some personal responsibilities attached.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241458
12/03/2020 04:57 PM
12/03/2020 04:57 PM
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DaveZ Offline
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getting held up for 20k and not being happy about it doesnt make one an "Ugly American"

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241461
12/03/2020 05:14 PM
12/03/2020 05:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Offline
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In defense of the boaters the BVI is a INCLOS signer. The BVI needs to honor that document or withdraw from the program. They failed to follow procedures they agreed to in signing INCLOS. If the boaters involved have the money and time to pursue the issue in court they will do very well.

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: GeorgeC1] #241464
12/03/2020 05:44 PM
12/03/2020 05:44 PM
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Posts: 12
Dallas
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dlparch Offline
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Dallas
Had to look that one up (INCLOS). I'm betting you meant UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: DaveZ] #241465
12/03/2020 05:48 PM
12/03/2020 05:48 PM
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Washington DC
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bailau Offline
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Originally Posted by DaveZ
getting held up for 20k and not being happy about it doesn't make one an "Ugly American"


No but her interviews and social media posts by their relatives certainly strike the "Ugly American" chord IMHO...FWIW I think the 20k fined boat handled it as well as they could but of course they are out 16k more than the other boat that decided to play this out in the media...

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: Breeze] #241466
12/03/2020 05:54 PM
12/03/2020 05:54 PM
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Posts: 3,001
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sail445 Offline
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Originally Posted by Breeze
There is a history behind the term " Ugly American", so who wants to go abroad and be one ?

Being a guest has some personal responsibilities attached.


Please don’t judge people by your previous history.
The sailors had every right to sail by, they didn’t anchor. It’s called innocent passage and only uneducated nations who don’t know the laws will do what the BVI are doing

Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241467
12/03/2020 05:57 PM
12/03/2020 05:57 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 871
Louisville, KY
NoelHall Offline
Traveler
NoelHall  Offline
Traveler
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 871
Louisville, KY
I fail to understand? Sailing from St. Thomas to St. Francis Bay on St. John doesn't appear to require 'passage' through BVI territorial waters, innocent or otherwise, and certainly would not require a 'fly by' of Soggy Dollar Bar on Jost Van Dyke. It seems a 'stretch' to define 'innocent passage' under the subject international agreement as allowing boaters indiscriminate trespass into foreign territorial waters for pleasure purposes. But then again, I'm not an authority on these matters. The captain/owner did admit on another report that he lost his cool, although I have no idea if 'playing nice' would have changed the outcome.


Noel Hall
"It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."

www.noelhall.com
Re: BVI Impounding boats [Re: CaptainJay] #241469
12/03/2020 06:02 PM
12/03/2020 06:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,855
Maine
Breeze Offline
Traveler
Breeze  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,855
Maine
Treating a sovereign nation's borders as a maritime playground, then complaining on the world stage about enforcement of those borders, really doesn't ring my bell in favor of the sailors who got caught where they weren't supposed to be. Ahem, 2 weeks after a massive drug bust...in the middle of a pandemic.???? No sh&t sherlock ?

Slow the roll. If you don't like the BVI rules, don't go there. I live in ski county, I know that no one wants to be tested to come here, I know they still want to come here.

Come here, just mask up. Come here, just respect my 6 foot perimeter. Come here, just PLEASE don't disrespect the boundaries that have been laid for visitors. And, for God's sake, don't say your need to spend money matters more than life and safety.

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