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Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. #310611
12/20/2023 08:22 PM
12/20/2023 08:22 PM
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 12
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katyordy Offline OP
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katyordy  Offline OP
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We are in Marina Cay right now and y'all I want this in my life more. So give me the details. If we buy a boat for moorings or one of those to manage what are the actual costs/ income? What's the advantage? I definitely like the idea of writing off my trips while I check on my business but I need the numbers. Thank you

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Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310612
12/20/2023 08:33 PM
12/20/2023 08:33 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 855
Redmond, WA
MrEZgoin Offline
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MrEZgoin  Offline
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Can't provide all the details here but the advantage, in a nutshell, is you have every incentive to do a lot of sailing and a decent chance of doing it at a favorable overall price. That's for the Moorings type guaranteed revenue program which typically does not have you materially participate and write stuff off. I wouldn't go any deeper than that in Marina Cay! :-)


M4000 "Lio Kai"
Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310613
12/20/2023 09:03 PM
12/20/2023 09:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,127
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GeorgeC1 Online content
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GeorgeC1  Online Content
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With current interest rates I don’t see any programs that are particularly attractive. I will say the Moorings lease back program has beat all 3 shared revenue programs I have participated in by a substantial margin.

Last edited by GeorgeC1; 12/20/2023 09:05 PM.
Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310614
12/20/2023 10:19 PM
12/20/2023 10:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,697
Memphis, BVI, CT
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RatmansWife Offline
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Memphis, BVI, CT
Did you see our Christmas lights earlier?

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310620
12/21/2023 08:25 AM
12/21/2023 08:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 177
The Beautiful BVI
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Brent Offline
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The Beautiful BVI
Ahoy Captains,

I would consider 5 Issues.
Income, Insurance, the declining Quality of the Phase Outs, Irma Boats and Covid Boats.

Income – A New Yacht? I strongly agree with Capt. George.
None of the Builders or New Yacht companies want to sell or charter anything under $500K. Their main source of profits is the Sales of New Yachts, which as Capt. George has noted, are very challenging due to Interest Rates.
Caveat Emptor with buying a New Yacht and having to pay the additional interest and principal that the present New Yacht charter companies no longer cover, and recognizing the Yacht will probably resell around 60% after it ‘retires’ in 5/6 Years.
This business, 40 Years ago, was predicted on tax breaks, using the boat as collateral to 90%, and boats selling for $100K. All Gone.
Your 'Profit' is your Owner Time.

There are very few 2nd Level / Used Yacht Charter companies since Cat 5 Irma and Covid.
http://www.traveltalkonline.com/ubb...rter-company-closed-shop.html#Post264468

Insurance - It is very challenging to find Insurance for the ITZ for Hurricane Season.
That is the Caribbean Sea for June 1 to Nov 30.
Do You want to buy a $500K Used Yacht to have it sit in Grenada for 6 Months of the Year, or, pay $$$/Night for the T dock in Florida for the summer months, while You personally, that is You on board 24/7, play hide and seek with the weather watches and warnings.
http://www.traveltalkonline.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/306581/1.html
You would be Very Lucky to find a charter company in the Caribbean, like The Captains Compass, that can offer Insurance including Hurricanes and all other Named Storms, 365 Days of the Year, with shelter 1 Hour away in the Water in a nearby Hurricane Hole. And, offer Yachts the Full Coverage for Bareboat and Crewed commercial chartering, 365 Days of the Year.

Phase Outs – Really Caveat Emptor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vwf2lC1uKA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPpLRc5Ox2U
etc.

Cat 5 Irma Yachts –
Cat 5 Irma damaged many Yachts.
Some of them have been repaired but the quality, under a thin coat of gelcoat, is questionable.
Most professional Marine Surveyors will not Survey a Yacht damaged by Cat 5 Irma due to the liability for the unknown quality of the repairs.
Without a Survey the Yacht can not be Insured or Chartered.

Covid Yachts –
Due to the world wide shutdown of Tourism during the Covid Pandemic there are many Yachts, especially those built since 2017, that have only 1/2 the normal 'wear and tear'. Especially charter yachts that were purchased with Insurance buyouts after Irma and now retiring after their 5 Year contracts have expired.
I hate hyperbole, but the fact is that these Covid Yachts with very low engine hours are ‘Once in a Lifetime’ opportunities, I Hope!

I Need More Quality Cats for Chartering !
Fair Winds, Brent
thecaptainscompass.com Yacht Charters and Management
heatseekerinternational.com 5% Comm and Sales-Tax-Free Yacht Brokerage

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310622
12/21/2023 09:46 AM
12/21/2023 09:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,127
GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Online content
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GeorgeC1  Online Content
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I should as Brent pointed out have stated that I meant new yacht programs. The covid crazy boat pricing seems to be returning back to normal which does mean there may be opportunities to place used boats in charter.
G

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310623
12/21/2023 10:02 AM
12/21/2023 10:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 177
The Beautiful BVI
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Brent Offline
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Brent  Offline
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The Beautiful BVI
Ahoy Captains,

The First thing You want to do is talk to an International Tax Attorney.
https://chambers.com/legal-guide/usa-5
Please do not start with your personal CPA as there is No 'Privilege' if the IRS calls.
You will need to consider issues such as FATCA and FBAR and TIEAs.

The Second thing is to consider retaining your own Broker.
You Broker can make an Offer using a 'Buyer Friendly' Purchase Contract that allows your Broker to hold the Funds in Escrow, as opposed to the Sellers Broker holding funds, which may be more difficult to refund if there are Issues.
Your Broker can also save Time and $ by facilitating a Surveyor, assist with the Surveys, Insurance, delivery of the Yacht, Registration, etc.
Your Broker should get a % of the Gross Sale price and is paid by the Seller.

I Need More Quality Cats for Chartering !
Fair Winds, Brent
thecaptainscompass.com Yacht Charters and Management
heatseekerinternational.com 5% Comm and Sales-Tax-Free Yacht Brokerage

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310631
12/21/2023 12:09 PM
12/21/2023 12:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,411
Washington DC
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bailau Online content
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Washington DC
I recommend "access not ownership"...we spend a lot of money "renting" the experience but it is money well spent when compared to owning long term.

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310633
12/21/2023 12:21 PM
12/21/2023 12:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 377
New Paltz, NY, Narragansett, R...
skipdastraw Offline
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skipdastraw  Offline
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New Paltz, NY, Narragansett, R...
We seriously looked into this pre-covid. You sound like me- all giddy and enthusiastic. I had months of communication and ran numbers every which way hoping to make it look more attractive than it really was. And I finally came to a few conclusions. The way our numbers ran, there was no real profit to be had. The profit was being able to use the boat for our vacations ( although not too much because you had to at least break even!). It also isn't as cut and dry as you think where it comes to "writing off your vacation". I will just leave it at "you can't have your cake and eat it too" with income/taxes. The other part is that no matter what, boats are a declining asset. In a few short years that new boat is now an old boat and you are faced with choices. I was someone that also needed the numbers and those numbers weren't anything like I expected. Also be sure to be honest with yourself if you are really a boat person or are you just looking for a way to get yourself to the BVI more and this seemed a promising thought? I was the latter. I love being on the water, love boats but I finally realized boats are small quarters and while fun for a vacation once in a while, I had no desire to make it a habit. You may very well be the opposite but ask yourself the hard questions and take a LOT of time and do a LOT of research before deciding. I started out with one feeling and at the end of the process felt completely different. We scratched the boat and bought a beach cottage instead and were instantly profitable. Land. Buy Land. They aren't making more of it.

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310637
12/21/2023 02:17 PM
12/21/2023 02:17 PM
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Posts: 30
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Bvicatter Offline
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Hi Skip- I drank the Kool Aide some years back with CatCo.

The pluses: I visited BVI about 14 times over 2.5 years- back when BWI to EIS was $500 round trip and took about half a day.

The minuses: I grew to resent and hate CatCo. They didn't nickel and dime me- they thousand and 5000 dollared me. It was intolerable. I have never, ever been back to CatCo since- but have chartered on average 2x a year since 1999. Did my last trip with Waypoint October 2023.

My viewpoint (applies to investment/rental real estate as well): don't invest in an asset you cannot visit and personally supervise on a regular basis. If you have to travel more than an hour to view your investment, take a pass. Buy a rental condo in your home town and use the cash flow to rent a charter week.

I have owned more boats than I care to count. I live in Annapolis, Maryland. For most enjoyable charter yacht experience- write a check for the week(s) you want- and walk away when the charter is done.

The 1/3 down stroke for a $600,000 boat is $200,000. Put that $200,000 in 5% CDs and vacation on the interest.

No disrespect to the good folks who do choose to purchase- I was one of them, myself. It didn't work for me, might work for others.

See you all at the Wille T or Soggy-

JAM, Annapolis, Md

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310639
12/21/2023 03:36 PM
12/21/2023 03:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,127
GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Online content
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GeorgeC1  Online Content
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I would put up a different point of view. I have had boats with 4 different companies. 3 were fine and one was an experience like you had at Catco but worse. In the end however for a 80,000 investment a long time ago I have sailed virtually free for 25 years. Minus the one company I would be solidly profitable.
G

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310650
12/21/2023 10:08 PM
12/21/2023 10:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,277
Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
tpcook Offline
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tpcook  Offline
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Vero Beach, Fl and South Sound...
I purchased a used Sunsail yacht and put it in charter with a second tier. Company. Bottom line nickel and dime to death. In the end I had to pay 25k to the company to get my boat back and never made a nickel. I did enjoy using the yacht several times so maybe looking at that I broke even. Did not write off the yacht re taxes..


tpcook
Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310660
12/22/2023 10:51 AM
12/22/2023 10:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 547
Bay Area
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Husker Offline
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I've had two boats with Moorings. Didn't make any money, but got to do a lot of sailing effectively for free, or nearly so (which was all we had expected going in). Moorings even honored the guaranteed monthly income contract thru the pandemic shut down. I don't think any other charter companies did that. We phased out of Moorings in October. Shockingly, we could have sold our boat for about what we paid for it new in 2018, thanks to an unusual spike in the used market the last couple years. We decided that we wanted to keep sailing and couldn't afford a new boat, so we are now in private charter which has much greater potential for profit, but not without some risk. We'll see how it goes and report back here.

Husker
s/v Abby Normal To
www.abbynormalto.com

Re: Owners- I am dreaming talk reality to me. [Re: katyordy] #310661
12/22/2023 11:20 AM
12/22/2023 11:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
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CDavis2 Offline
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I am sure there are plenty of mixed experiences but we have add multiple Powercats with Marine Max for nearly 11 years and it has gone well for us. We don't finance the boats so that has influenced our returns. Also I should point out that Marine Max did continue payments in the fixed plan during both Covid and Post-Hurricane Irma timeframes. We are currently in a variable income plan with MM which has worked out well for us. Our boats have been well maintained over the years and we have not experienced any challenges finding a surveyor for a Post-Irma boat or phasing a boat out with Marine Max. Obviously there are better investment opportunities out there but we have been happy with our decisions.


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