Traveltalkonline.com Forums


BVI Cruise Schedule TTOL Sponsors BVI Travel Calendar
Forum Statistics
Forums39
Topics32,175
Posts248,876
Members25,613
Most Online2,218
Jan 21st, 2020
Top Posters(30 Days)
pat 93
dolfer 57
Kennys 53
Member Spotlight
ChiTownHarry
ChiTownHarry
Chicago area & St-Martin
Posts: 721
Joined: January 2003
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
mjreinafarje, Pammi, RickyEM, shandlee
Who's Online Now
65 registered members (ScottW, Jaybird, pandpfromcanada, SandS, pedalpusher, John, LINNY, gordaguy2, SURICK, Thirsty_Toad, MrEZgoin, Kennyxx50, JasonHelmbrecht, GeorgeC1, ecm56, Midsouth, samboaty, SXMbeacher, Snorkeller, RobertD, Husker, jpfitzy7, bailau, bbeach, Matagorda Dude, BarnacleBoy, xrayman67, SXMScubaman, 706jim, captmonk, altouchet, BruceU, JimE, Kevin_B, IWIWSE, louismcc, pbd007, RI Bob C, Fred, tbone, SXMBND, chuckval, jagmansr, ChuckG, road3682, dfmsml, Kennys, MKGrey, Fletch, 16 invisible), 236 guests, and 381 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response #168062
08/20/2018 01:13 AM
08/20/2018 01:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 22
W
WineFusion Offline OP
Traveler
WineFusion  Offline OP
Traveler
W
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 22
I have just seen Horizon's response but unfortunately it would not let me reply on the previous thread so here is my response. Please look back for the original post. In response to their comments, it is sad that I am being attacked not only by Horizon but as well by other "travelers". The purpose of blogs is so that people can feel comfortable in posting their "real life experiences" which is what I did. Concerning posters who questioned the check out debrief and experience, I have been sailing for 23 years now, I own several large boats and assure you that I am competent and always bring a well versed crew as well. Between myself and other crew members, we have at least 90 years of sailing experience between us. I shouldn't have to defend this point though because even if it was my first year, it would still have had the same impact on our charter experience. Please see my detailed responses to Horizon's below each of their statements below. Again, it's sad that we, as the customers, have to defend our trip report but since there are many ignorant people out there, here it is.




Horizon Yacht Charters would like to address the charter on “Double Expresso” that has been a topic on this forum. Since 1998, Horizon has built a reputation within the industry for offering well maintained yachts and excellent customer service so it is with deep regret that our charter guest was disappointed on this occasion. We complete extensive Technical, shipwright and Rigging checks before each charter and at the end of every charter we debrief the captain. We do this to ensure all items, small and large, are addressed. The Debrief is signed by the Captain at the end of the charter. Four items were mentioned, three of which had already been addressed on one service call during the charter. At no time during the debrief was it mentioned that the guests were extremely unhappy with their charter experience. We take reviews very seriously as we always strive to exceed our guests expectations and have listed below a more detailed response to each of the issues raised in this post.
CHARTER FEE: On 7th March at 10:01am, client was quoted $5695.00 for their charter. We agreed to reduce this by request by $150 to price match a quote from another charter company. Client was given three free days as seasonal promotion; 10 nights for the price of 7. The price actually paid for the charter was $5545.00 as agreed. Also note that the charter commenced on the 26th not the 25th.

This price is not correct and is much less than we paid for our full charter. Please check your records and be honest. I can provide pictures of what was charged to my bank if you like. WF

DEPARTURE TIME: On 9th March at 8:43am we advised our guest by email that boarding time would be 12 noon (also stated in the contract). We do endeavor to board clients board earlier when we can, but do not promise this. The charter guest was also informed that the boat brief and chart brief would take approximately an hour each. The time is variable with each client depending on their needs. Departing at 2:30pm is a very reasonable time.

Except that there was never a chart briefing, again please be honest about this. WF

YACHT CLEANING: Double Expresso was cleaned fully a few days prior to the guests arrival. She went out on a marketing photoshoot after that full clean. The photo shoot was done with Horizon staff for a couple hours between Nanny Cay and Pelican Island. After the photo shoot all cushions were stacked and stored to ensure they did not get wet or dirty. Whilst we do a full clean at least by the day before charter, our procedure is to do a final clean, inside and out the day of charter start, per the expected time of our client’s arrival. As the client had relayed their arrival time as 10 a.m. on the 26th into Road Town. We had the interior and external cleaner do their job first thing that morning with the expectation of the guest arriving around 11 a.m. after clearing into the BVI. The boat was clean and ready for boarding at noon.


CHANGING THE CABLE: On the morning of the charter start we had just received a network cable to complete a repair to the auto pilot. We put 2 technicians on this job first thing in the morning to ensure the autopilot was fully functional. They completed the job and were off Double Expresso by 11 a.m.

Not true either, the techs didn't even start the running of the cable until after 11am. WF

SUP: Horizon had changed to inflatable SUPs a couple years ago. We did a trial year before switching from hard boards to inflatable ones. We found our guest liked them just as much as the hard ones and they were easier to handle and less likely to be damaged or cause damage. We have 10’6” Red Paddle SUPs, certainly not blow up toys as TTOL users ‘henryv’ and ‘warren460’ rightly pointed out in this post. Imported into the BVI they are about $1,500. We still have some hard boards. When the client called to let us know that they were unhappy with the inflatable, we delivered them a hard SUP free of charge to Trellis Bay.
CHART BRIEF: I am sure that Jalon would have given them a full chart brief if he had known that expectation. Either the request was not made clear to him by the captain or reservations, or the guests took departing the dock as the priority. Our Departure Check form was completed and signed by the Captain. The first item on this confirms that a chart briefing was either done or they did not require one. Whilst chart briefing is always a service provided by Horizon, we do believe that at least a cursory one should be done as things have changed a bit. Jalon confirms that he did do such a cursory brief with these clients. Some of this briefing was ignored completely by the guests.

The checklist that a chart briefing be done among many other things was given to me to sign well before any of those things could have even happened. I was expected to sign such agreement assuming things would be done properly. Which obviously they were not. WF

DINGHY ENGINE: We discovered the dinghy engine was seized during our Mechanical checks a few days prior and had prepared a replacement for this charter. Unfortunately, the exterior cleaner was unaware and put the original, malfunctioning outboard with the yacht. Unfortunate for sure. At Horizon we know that things like this will deflate the customer’s confidence in our yachts. The outboard was switched out in about ½ an hour. There was no departure delay due to this as the guests were still putting provisioning on board the yacht at this point.


DINGHY COWLING COVER: No doubt the latch was broken. It must have failed on charter. We changed out the outboard the day of charter start with the client there. See above. Anyone who has ever handled a 15 hp outboard knows that if the cowling cover was not secure, you would know it by picking the outboard up and fitting it to a dinghy. Latch failure reported on their 3rd day of charter.

Agreed, as stated, that this happened on the charter and not beforehand. However, it was not fixed. WF

AIR CONDITIONING: As ’maytrix’ rightly points out we always ensure that all the AC units are fully functional and running prior to guests' boarding. This was the case here. The air conditioning discharge valves are under the sink and are clearly labelled as such. These are the valve the guest closed thinking they were for the holding tank. The briefer, Jalon, is our most experienced briefer who has been with us for many years. He knows the boats inside and out. He explicitly remembers briefing on the location of the holding tank discharge valves and demonstrated their use by closing and re-opening the valve. These valves are particularly important on this yacht as they have a locking sleeve which prevents inadvertent operation. The Technical Manual onboard also has a section dedicated to their use and has a photo showing their location and appearance. Not sure if AC was running whilst the guest left hatches open, but of course if so the AC would not work very well this way. With open hatches the evaporator would freeze and limit air circulation. The client used 49 gallons fuel during the charter. The generator uses an average of 1/3 of a gallon per hour. The propulsion motors use less than ½ a gallon per hour as max RPMs/2200.

AC did work in the main salon area during briefing, the problem was that it did not cool the cabins down properly. Jalon did not show us the valves, he said they were under the sink. How, in any world could we have confused that with 'under the floor boards in the hallway". This is crazy. Jalon, is lying if he told you otherwise, and he certainly never showed us how to close or open any valves period. Jalon needs to be seriously written up for this. WF


MOD / EMERGENCY CALLS: At Horizon Yacht Charters we maintain 24/7 support for our guests through the Manager on Duty cell phone. We never ignore this when it rings. We give our guests 24 hour service both on the Manager on Duty phone as well as the Director of Operations personal cell in case there is a problem with MOD communication or if a guest does not feel satisfied with a response. We are there to help with the simple reminders of yacht operation, weather updates, arrange service, etc, and of course in a real emergency. Many other charter companies do not offer this level of service. Post-Irma, the whole BVI has struggled with occasional network blackouts. Our cell coverage is nearly back to 100%, but repairs and improvements are still needed, but out of our control. Our MOD cell phone shows no missed calls, text messages, nor voice mails from the dates and times this customer tried to call us. We were in contact with the client at least 5 times during their charter.

This response is no more than an outright lie. We tried every number listed in your book including the emergency number, MOD number, office number etc. YOU DID NOT ANSWER. Why would you even try and debate this? There is literally no reason that we would make that up. We called, several times, no one answered. Here's a piece of advice for you, your customers are not going to lie to you about something they experienced. Why would they? We have no reason to try and get people in trouble, but if we need help, we expect someone to pick up the phone. WF

ANCHOR LIGHTS: Whilst this is unfortunate that the mast light went out. We discussed the problem with the client and let him know that anchor lights are not necessary whilst on a mooring ball. International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea state that the mast head light is only for use while on anchor, not on a mooring buoy. We suggested that when on a mooring or anytime at night it was better to use a light at sea level to illuminate the boat as the most predictable collision would be a dinghy at night. The cockpit light was used as a suggestion. The guest agreed that this was satisfactory.

No the guest did not agree that was satisfactory, we were not given another choice. With AC not working properly in the cabins, half of us had to sleep outside every night. Safety should always be your number one concern. Period. WF


FREEZER: The freezer was working on departure, Indeed we have an AC and refrigeration specialist, who had installed an air vent so the compressor would work more efficiently before this charter. A door switch on this unit had become dislodged during charter. This switch controls the circulation fan. With that switch not operating the air would not properly circulate. The technician who tried to repair reported that the freezer would not freeze without the circulation fan, but would cool as a fridge. In addition to the freezer, there is a front loading fridge, and a cockpit fridge on this yacht – both were working correctly. Over 200 litres of capacity in addition to the 61 litre freezer that gave issues. It is disappointing that the freezer stopped during the charter, but the other two refrigeration units were fully operational.

Great that the refers worked, but the freezer never did. Kind of a big deal when you have a lot of frozen items on board for dinners a week away. WF


LAZY JACK LINES: Were new in the spring of this year. Repaired whilst customers were at the Baths the same day they reported the failure.

One was replaced in the spring, I could tell. But the other one was not. That's what upset me about the obvious maintenance not being done. If you have to replace one line, you have to replace the other doing the same job. This is boat maintenance 101. WF

VHF: The VHF was tested not only during the pre-charter technical checks, but also demonstrated to the guests during the boat briefing the day they boarded the yacht on the 26th. Guest called the Manager on Duty at 11:09am on 30th July. Within 10 minutes we had resolved this issue. There are two VHF stations aboard; one at the helm, and one at the Nav Desk. The mic at the Nav Desk was working. We had the client move the Nav VHF to the client preferred helm station.

The VHF did work during briefing, it did just fail a day or two later.


LEAKING HATCH: We leak tested the hatches on the 10th of August. No leaks were present. I can only assume that the offending hatch was not ‘dogged down’ sufficiently.

Again, I was the one that had the leaking hatch. After 23 years of sailing, I assure you that I know how to close a hatch properly. You can excuse it however you like though. WF


WINDLASS REMOTE: The anchor on an Open 40 is deployed from under the bridge deck. It is important to keep an eye on the anchor chain and windlass when you are deploying or retrieving the anchor and chain. The yacht in question came with a remote control at the helm as part of the yacht manufacturer’s package. We disconnect this helm remote for charter use as it’s use could cause problems. It was disconnected not broken. This was explained to the client during his boat brief the first day.

Didn't care about it not working, just adding it to the list of things that did not work as they should. WF


UNDERWATER LIGHTS: I am sorry that one of these were not functional at the time of this charter. We have subsequently repaired a wiring fault on one and ordered a replacement second unit that needs replacing.


SALON TABLE: The factory installed latches were prone to failure and upgraded them with much more substantial stainless steel barrel bolts when the yacht joined our fleet. After this review came to light they were inspected and found to be fully functional.

LOL, Wow. Really?. Because the screws actually came out of the latch meaning they would have had to replace the latch for it to be "fully functional". Again, another lie. WF

INVERTOR: Tested after charter and proved to be working. No faults found.
OWNERSHIP: This yacht is a privately owned vessel contrary to belief stated by this guest. This is a moot point as we care for each yacht in the same regard for charter maintenance. When we owned the yacht, which we did, we took as good care of it as we would for an owner. We both charter and sell yachts. It is in our best interest to maintain them at the highest standard for both reasons. It does not make sense to put boats out on charter if it is going to hurt your reputation and therefore loose future customers.

We feel sorry for the owner and suggest he place it with a company that will take better care of the yacht and not lie to it's customers. WF


AT THIS POINT I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS A COUPLE OF ISSUES THAT HORIZON EXPERIENCED WITH THE CLIENTS THAT WERE NOT MENTIONED IN THIS POST:

NO SAILING AT NIGHT: This charter captain noted on the first day of charter that he was aware that he had to be moored by 5:30 and no sailing at night. Yet, on the penultimate day of their charter they returned to Horizon Yacht Charters with no communication at 7:30 pm. As people at the shoreside restaurant saw this they called a Horizon Manager about it. Jalon went to catch the client’s lines and assist them on to the dock. The client reportedly was pleased to have assistance as it was tricky, and his crew had not put the fenders in the correct position. He then expressed surprise to find Horizon staff there after hours and in the dark. Obviously if an accident had happened this would have serious consequences for all. If the yacht had sustained damaged and had to be repaired; The client would be responsible for the costs. The next charter guest would not be able to use Double Expresso for their holiday. Horizon would have looked bad for not being able to honour the next charter. Insurance premiums would go up. The owner would have a damaged yacht and lost needed revenue.

Another lie, we pulled in at 6:30pm with plenty of day light to dock. We had fenders on the starboard side originally because the double sided dock was empty. Under Jalon's advice we back in instead of pulling in forward which made us change the side of the fenders. As your inspections concluded, there was no damage at all to the yacht because we are seasoned veterans. WF




OVERNIGHT MOORING ON A NATIONAL PARK MOORING BALL: The captain acknowledges overnighting on one with little regard for the rules. For your information, the charter client is liable to a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars ($10,000.00 USD), or to imprisonment for a term of 1 year, or to both such fine and imprisonment for using a Nation Park Mooring for overnight use. This law is highlighted in the HYC “Skipper’s Hand Book” on each one of our yachts. The wording of the law seems extreme and I doubt that anyone would be imprisoned nor taken to full fine, but we would be remiss not to tell our clients the letter of the law.

This happens daily, whilst not recommended, it was imperative being that WE DIDNT HAVE A WORKING AC like we paid for. WF


OUT OF BOUNDS AREAS IGNORED: It is interesting that the client maintained that he did not get a chart briefing. Chart briefings high light the good spots as well as no go zones. Eustacia Sound is one of those no go zones for our yachts due to insurance reasons. (Explore Eustacia with your dinghy please). There are two independent GPS chartplotters fitted to Double Expresso. Both were laying out continuous track lines of where the boat had gone during the charter. Interestingly enough, one tracking line was deleted, evidently to hide the fact that Double Expresso had gone into Eustacia Sound. Our guess is that the client did not realize that the other GPS was independent. The other GPS, tracking not deleted, clearly shows the transiting East of Saba Rock and around through into Eustacia sound. This is also covered in the Departure Check Out form that the client signed. They also underlined this particular no-go-zone on that form.

If we actually had a chart briefing then we would have known that for sure. That day was also not planned as we wanted to go to Anegads but decided not to because we didn't know what was going to break on the boat next. So this is your fault as much as it is ours. But again, this was not our first day in BVI. I have over 100 days experience in sailing through BVI and again, no harm was done to the boat and it was returned better than we got it because we are an experienced crew. Your point here is mute and no one "erased GPS data". We don't care that you researched where we went. We can afford to buy every boat in your fleet and your company if we wanted. But we are not "credit card" captains or crew. We are experienced sailors just looking for a decent boat to charter when we travel. All of our personal owned yachts are much larger and nicer than yours. So let's not get into a contest here. WF


CEILING FALLING DOWN: This was not mentioned at debrief nor reported whilst on charter. Our shipwright refitted it the port forward ceiling during his charter checks. Unfortunately the shipwright is now on holiday so I am unaware of the specific problem here. He just reports on his daily work sheet “refit ceiling panel”. The panel is secured by industrial type Velcro so that it can be removed easily to access wiring etc

This is another lie, I don't remember the guys name. But he was a young white male that rode a bycycle down to see us when we were departing. I told him of the falling ceiling and that they better get that repaired properly quickly because it fell on our guests and someone could get hurt badly because of it. If you are being honest, please call me and put him on the phone, I want to hear him say that we didnt tell him that. Again, trust your customers. We are not just making this up. WF


In summary, since Irma in September 2017, the Horizon Staff have delivered nothing short of a miracle and worked diligently combining the rebuild effort with regular charter operations. Double Expresso has been out on 13 charters this season and up until this one charter we have met and exceeded our guests’ expectations.

We do appreciate the opportunity to address our clients concerns. Whilst the above may well come off as defensive, it was done with great care to the truth and speaking with every staff member involved. I took time to make sure this reply was honest and that was the only reason for any delay in rebuttal. It is regrettable that the clients chose not to deal with these complaints whilst they were here and with their charter company directly. Our team thought throughout the charter that the client was satisfied with the remedies provided. At the very least, we would have thought that if a client was unhappy with their charter they would have said so at the end, during debrief. Especially if they were this unhappy. When things don’t go well on charter we do our level best to remedy them during charter. As someone who spoke with the client during his charter, there is a disconnect between the person I spoke to and the person that wrote this condemnation. I am sincere when I say that I am glad that they have come down to the BVI to support the country during a challenging time and enjoy our islands and water. They have chartered in the BVI 4 times, each time with a different charter company. As they love the BVI, I do hope they find a charter company they love equally. We would of course welcome them back to Horizon in the hope of an opportunity to give them a flawless charter the next time they visit.
Sincerely,
The Horizon Yacht Charters Team

Horizon, I think if you are honest with your self then you will realize that we did share every single thing we listed with you or with someone that works for your company. You failed us, and on top of that then came online and actually tried to make us (the customer) look bad instead of apologizing and doing the right thing. It's sad that you think that you can post lies instead of owning up to what you did wrong. Because of that, no. We will never come back and give you another chance. We will be back to BVI and we will take care of the next yacht we charter as if it were our own. But you need to do our part. Do the daily, weekly and monthly maintenance required on these yachts. Be good stewards and give your customers a reason to return to BVI. Fortunately we have been there many times and will return again even after our terrible experience with you and your staff. Be honest, require high integrity of your staff. I will swear upon my mothers grave that everything I said was true. Would you staff do the same? It's sad that you have staff members lying to you, but please do not blame the customer when you don't know the truth. We pay for their wages, why would we make stuff up? It doesnt make sense. You guys and gals need to do a deep cleaning and make sure that your staff is being completely honest with you. Because I know for sure they are several lies that have now happened. I admitted our faults (coming in late). Can you admit yours. Your briefing captain did not show us the correct valves, your debriefing guy did not report the falling ceiling like we told him. You also are lying about the time we arrived at dock. You said you always answer your emergency number yet we tried several times and no one answered, why would we just make this up? This is too much and is proof that your company has a huge problem with integrity. Repair that, then repair your boats. Then you may survive as a company. If you don't, I have a feeling you won't be "rebuilding" anything. WF

Last edited by WineFusion; 08/20/2018 01:20 AM. Reason: Color change for responses to lies
BVI Sponsors
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168063
08/20/2018 01:52 AM
08/20/2018 01:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,131
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
Traveler
warren460  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,131
Ontario, Canada
With only 10 posts including those bashing horizon, you have little credibility here. No reflection on you personally, just reality.


Warren S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 50 (winner of best crewed yacht under 55 feet at the St. Thomas crewed yacht boat show).

https://www.cyabrochure.com/ebn/2307/pdyrX/6642/4///
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168071
08/20/2018 09:28 AM
08/20/2018 09:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
C
Catmandu Offline
Traveler
Catmandu  Offline
Traveler
C
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
Warren, that comment is ridiculous. So the number of posts dictate your credibility? I guess I have little credibility with my 85 posts compared to your great creditbility with 1,476 posts. Not! It is sad to say that employees will fabricate the truth to cover their backs to save their jobs especially in an environment post Irma where employment is sparce. I will wait for Horizon's rebuttal before passing my personal judgement but I will say I am leaning toward siding with Wine but then again I have little credibility.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168072
08/20/2018 09:30 AM
08/20/2018 09:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,899
GA/NC
GeorgeC1 Online content
Traveler
GeorgeC1  Online Content
Traveler
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,899
GA/NC
You took offense to my post about some issues being boat experience. The reason I posted that is there were items in your original post that were red flags and more in your reply here. The most obvious is no experienced skipper leaves the dock not having any idea of where the thru hulls are located. That’s boating safety 101. Tied into that is confusing AC lines for holding tank discharge lines regardless of the boat briefing. That’s virtually impossible to do given the routing and size differences without even adding they were most likely labeled. I also did not understand trying to raise a running outboard out of the water. It appeared in reading your original post you were trying to toss a lot of inconsequential items into the complaint. It would have been better to stick with the serious items.
As far as the quality of the boat briefing most briefers get their cues from the client. I can’t imagine if you started at the bow and worked aft going through all the systems he would refuse to answer questions. It just seems odd such a experienced skipper would leave the dock with so many unanswered questions. Both your posts suggest a unreasonable expectation of how quick you could get off the dock and that perhaps you were pushing the staff to expediate everything. I tell people for a noon start be happy with 3 to 4 pm and thrilled if you can get out earlier.
As far as Eustasia sound you mention you have many BVI charters under your belt. I have chartered boats with 6 different charter companies. All redline that area.
G

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: warren460] #168074
08/20/2018 09:35 AM
08/20/2018 09:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 161
Eastern MA
T
tothedogs Offline
Traveler
tothedogs  Offline
Traveler
T
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 161
Eastern MA
I would be curious to know what gives one credibility? I post rarely, though have more than 50 charters in the BVI, SVI, Grenadines and Bahamas going back to the late 1980's. I think that passing judgement or shaming based on the number of posts one has is unfortunate, and deprives the board of the opinions of others.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168076
08/20/2018 10:35 AM
08/20/2018 10:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,614
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
Traveler
maytrix  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,614
Massachusetts
George pretty much summed up my thoughts. I think after just our first trip I knew the difference between an AC line and holding tank discharge. Only thing that you could confuse is in the AC lines for the salt water intake line, but there's no reason to close any of those. It seems more likely to me that WF might have told someone to close the valve under the sink and that's what they did?

I also agree with George in that the briefing will go along however you want. After our first trip, we never did a chart briefing in the BVI and after the first 4-5 trips, we did bare minimum on the boat briefing because I was very familiar with all their boats. I'd go over everything myself ahead of time to make sure nothing was missing and then go over just what's new or different if we were on a newer model or different model boat. And noon start, getting off by 2:30 is normal.

Regarding the return time, a big deal was made about leaving at 2:30 and not being able to sail after 5:30. Then it was admitted on the return that it was a late arrival and even if horizon was wrong on the time, 6:30 is still after 5:30. Might have just been better to leave that out - as George said, only focus on the critical items.

I think warren's credibility comment is a bit off - only basis a history of posts has is that it allows members here to get to know one another. We simple don't know WF. We have no history. It is his word against horizons. Horizon has 1 post as well, so in regards to the horizon rep that posted, credibility on both is about the same. What I can say as far as credibility goes is that saying one can buy all the boats in the company and buy the company..etc is not going to gain any credibility in my book. Then there are the above issues which for a seasoned sailor with over 100 days just doesn't add up. No offense to WF - I simply don't know you and am going by the info you are sharing.

Last edited by maytrix; 08/20/2018 10:44 AM.

Matt
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: Catmandu] #168077
08/20/2018 10:39 AM
08/20/2018 10:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,000
VI,GA,AZ
sail445 Offline
Traveler
sail445  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,000
VI,GA,AZ
Originally Posted by Catmandu
Warren, that comment is ridiculous. So the number of posts dictate your credibility? I guess I have little credibility with my 85 posts compared to your great creditbility with 1,476 posts. Not! It is sad to say that employees will fabricate the truth to cover their backs to save their jobs especially in an environment post Irma where employment is sparce. I will wait for Horizon's rebuttal before passing my personal judgement but I will say I am leaning toward siding with Wine but then again I have little credibility.


I have to agree with you about employees trying to cover their A**
One thing I noticed in the islands is that usually a reputable business can go haywire every once in awhile if one or two changes are made in their daily operations and the employees aren’t taught and trained to understand the changes.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168081
08/20/2018 11:02 AM
08/20/2018 11:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 35
D
Donald Offline
Traveler
Donald  Offline
Traveler
D
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 35
I, for one, like to hear both sides of the story but at the same time, I would still do my own homework about a business before engaging them. I've never chartered with Horizon and I do not know the original poster. However I have chartered with Moorings and the post from a couple weeks ago where someone had a bad experience with them isn't going to change my opinion of them because my 4 trips have gone off without a hitch. Just the same as my opinion of Horizon (whom have always had mostly positive reviews on this board) hasn't changed. One charterer had a bad experience which he shared. If sharing one's less than stellar reviews is a no-no or you can't do it without being personally attacked, change the rules of the forum and say "good reviews only, please" so members here know the rules of engagement. Seems to me this posting has become personal and nothing to do with what may or may not have happened at the dock or while in charter.

I have had bad service from organizations when someone else had great service from the same outfit. For example, don't get me going about American Airlines & Seaborne -- I had a terrible experience with them but I've read others here who had no problems. I could have posted a minute by minute account about everything that went wrong, but figured, for me its not worth it just to be called an [censored] by total strangers who weren't there just because they disagree with me.

A lousy experience by one person is simply a lousy experience by one person. No more, no less...

Its just the blind faith era we live in where if people don't like the message, they attack the messenger. The 6 o'clock news these days provides ample examples of that.

OK, that's the end of my editorial rant!

That being said, I learned a lot from the original post (in part because there has never been AC on any boat I've been on). I recall a post here several years ago where someone posted a check list which covered EVERYTHING he tests before leaving the dock. He even raised and lowered the sails to check furling, etc. I remember that because I've never seen anyone go to that length before leaving the dock but thought it was a great idea. If anyone has it, could you send it to me privately? Thanks,

See you on the water,

Don

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168085
08/20/2018 11:25 AM
08/20/2018 11:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 41
M
mg3355 Offline
Traveler
mg3355  Offline
Traveler
M
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 41
I agree with everything Donald said. The OP should be able to share his experience so the rest of us can make more informed decisions. I have used Horizon 3 times and each time I've had excellent service. The next time I go to the BVI, I will most likely use them again. However, that is my choice and I do so knowing that someone else did not have such great service. If I were to consistently see posts like this one, I might change my mind. For now, I understand no business is perfect and I hope this was an isolated incident.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168086
08/20/2018 11:25 AM
08/20/2018 11:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,614
Massachusetts
maytrix Offline
Traveler
maytrix  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,614
Massachusetts
Don,

I think the locked thread did get into attacking. There also were some observation such as what George and I commented on. If someone says they have lots of experience over multiple trips, then states 100 days, then there are some expected things and some things just didn't add up. Maybe as I suggested there are explanations which is fine. None were given yet.


Matt
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168099
08/20/2018 01:39 PM
08/20/2018 01:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,765
Med/ Caribbean
sailbynight Offline
Traveler
sailbynight  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,765
Med/ Caribbean
In my experience, problems with a service company are best resolved between the company and the client. Public badgering and bickering serves no purpose whatsoever, and certainly doesn't make the company or the client look good.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: sailbynight] #168101
08/20/2018 02:07 PM
08/20/2018 02:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
C
Catmandu Offline
Traveler
Catmandu  Offline
Traveler
C
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
Originally Posted by sailbynight
In my experience, problems with a service company are best resolved between the company and the client. Public badgering and bickering serves no purpose whatsoever, and certainly doesn't make the company or the client look good.


Hmmm. I thought that was one of the purposes of this forum.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: mg3355] #168104
08/20/2018 03:20 PM
08/20/2018 03:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 294
Park City, Utah
ericlut Offline
Traveler
ericlut  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 294
Park City, Utah
I also agree with Don's points. The OP took the time to provide information that may prove useful to some of us.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168113
08/20/2018 04:46 PM
08/20/2018 04:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 7
W
wandawoman80 Offline
Traveler
wandawoman80  Offline
Traveler
W
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 7
I am new to this forum, however I would like to know how charter companies handle/resolve complaints with their customers. I am curious why this issue was not escalated to management and the customer not contacted via phone to try and resolve this matter in private with the client. Isn't making some provisions/concessions for the customer worth a company's reputation. In short....A company's CUSTOMER SERVICE can make or break your company. I'm sure they could have mediated a happy median, therefore, maybe the customer could have came back to the forum and reported a higher rating for Horizon.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168115
08/20/2018 05:07 PM
08/20/2018 05:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 542
Apex, NC
agrimsrud Offline
Traveler
agrimsrud  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 542
Apex, NC
I think both Horizon and OP believe they're being reasonable and probably honest in their assessment. IMHO the problems started with a departure from the dock in a bit of a hurry. The briefer went over the boat with OP and the OP was giving feedback that he already knew the topics. Thus the checkout went quickly but in retrospect things were not covered. From OP's perspective - and in hind sight - he did not receive a proper boat/chart briefing. But from Horizon's point of view they covered the bases with the OP. I don't think that means anyone was lying. Both perspectives are honest.

Do I believe the boat had issues and the OP was unhappy? Absolutely. In this regards I think you can follow the money. Did OP have anything to gain by the posting? How about Horizon. Follow your nose on this one which leaves me to believe there is at least something to be said for OP's unhappy state.

Now let me comment on some OP statements which I find a bit troubling.

With regards to overnight mooring on a national park mooring the OP states "This happens daily, whilst not recommended, it was imperative being that WE DIDNT HAVE A WORKING AC like we paid for.". There was nothing imperative about mooring on a national park mooring because you didn't have working AC. The two are not connected.

With regards to the out of bounds area being ignored the OP states "We can afford to buy every boat in your fleet and your company if we wanted. But we are not "credit card" captains or crew. We are experienced sailors just looking for a decent boat to charter when we travel. All of our personal owned yachts are much larger and nicer than yours". I don't think your wealth gives you an excuse for sailing in an out of bounds area.

Just my five cents worth. Assuming of course Warren thinks I have any credibility.


Life's short - sail more!
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168128
08/20/2018 08:07 PM
08/20/2018 08:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 121
NJ USA
M
mcevog Offline
Traveler
mcevog  Offline
Traveler
M
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 121
NJ USA
I hope that frequency of posting isn't what provides credibility; I would hope that credibility comes from civil and polite posting and consideration for others points of view.

I am sure that we have all had bad experiences with vacations - I know I have, and I know how irritated I end up feeling as a result. My preference is to have a detailed, frank discussion with the provider of the vacation and try and seek some recompense for the problems. Maybe the OP did that first, and only resorted to publishing his experiences here once he had failed to get satisfaction? I don't know; I don't think he mentions this.

My concern about this write up is the 'apparent' lack of care shown for the limited rules of chartering someone elses' property. There really aren't many rules that charterers have to live up to. They don't have to pass tests and gain certification like in some parts of the world. They pretty much show up, convince the management company that they are competent, and then they are off with someone elses' vessel for a week or 2. I don't begrudge that, far from it.. I wouldn't be able to justify owning a cruising cat to myself if I didn't enjoy the income that comes from chartering to offset the cost of ownership. However, I do hope - expect in fact - that those who charter my property live up to the rules of the game. Not sailing after a certain time in the evening, not hanging out on NP moorings overnight - because they aren't safe for that - and not taking the yacht into redline areas of the chart are pretty simple rules to follow. Thats the issue I have, and thats why I made my comment on the original post that I would rather not have my vessel chartered by someone who would be unwilling to follow those rules.

Maybe I am being naive. Maybe these rules are flouted all the time. I don't tend to flout them when I am sailing my own boat in the BVI as I think they make sound common sense.

Maybe the OP does indeed have the money to buy my boat over and over, and maybe his boat is indeed nicer and larger than what I have. But at the end of the day, if by flouting these rules our vessels are damaged, its not just the charterer who has the hassle of the bill, but its the owner who now has to carry out the repair/lose the revenue while under repair, and its the follow on customers who now don't have a vessel to use. I think that goes beyond the financial capability question.

I think that civility and respect for property goes a long way. I know the management company I use takes pride in the vessels they look after, thats why I chose them. My experience of the charter customers that have used my boat has also been very positive. Long may it continue.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: mcevog] #168130
08/20/2018 09:43 PM
08/20/2018 09:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,251
VIRGINIA
B
BEERMAN Offline
Traveler
BEERMAN  Offline
Traveler
B
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,251
VIRGINIA
Everyone has the right to post their experience on this forum, but a company has every right to respond to an online complaint, especially if the complaint wasn’t addressed directly to them from the client. We’ve had several issues on charters (these are boats by the way) they’ve always been handled in a reasonable manner. There are times when something can’t be perfect, roll with it or talk to the company if it’s that’s disappointing to you. There are several things in these posts that bug me, but if a post(s) repeat not to use a company the least a company should do is respond...and they have.

Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: Catmandu] #168131
08/20/2018 09:45 PM
08/20/2018 09:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,131
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
Traveler
warren460  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,131
Ontario, Canada
Catmandu, I think you missed my point. Wine fusion shows up on the board and shortly thereafter starts dumping on horizon.

If George or matrix had a negative comment, given their time on ttol and many preceding positive comments, then a negative review would be assumed to be more credible.

The number of posts when it’s single digits should put the reader on guard.

That’s all. After someone has contributed for a little while the skepticism should disappear.

If you were offended, that was not my intention.


Warren S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 50 (winner of best crewed yacht under 55 feet at the St. Thomas crewed yacht boat show).

https://www.cyabrochure.com/ebn/2307/pdyrX/6642/4///
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: warren460] #168132
08/20/2018 09:49 PM
08/20/2018 09:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
C
Catmandu Offline
Traveler
Catmandu  Offline
Traveler
C
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 94
New Jersey
Originally Posted by warren460
Catmandu, I think you missed my point. Wine fusion shows up on the board and shortly thereafter starts dumping on horizon.

If George or matrix had a negative comment, given their time on ttol and many preceding positive comments, then a negative review would be assumed to be more credible.

The number of posts when it’s single digits should put the reader on guard.

That’s all. After someone has contributed for a little while the skepticism should disappear.

If you were offended, that was not my intention.



Understood and forgiven.

Last edited by Catmandu; 08/20/2018 09:52 PM.
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: Catmandu] #168133
08/20/2018 09:57 PM
08/20/2018 09:57 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,131
Ontario, Canada
warren460 Offline
Traveler
warren460  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,131
Ontario, Canada
Thank you.


Warren S/V Scuba Doo
Lagoon 50 (winner of best crewed yacht under 55 feet at the St. Thomas crewed yacht boat show).

https://www.cyabrochure.com/ebn/2307/pdyrX/6642/4///
Re: Horizon Yacht Charter Fail Response [Re: WineFusion] #168139
08/20/2018 11:29 PM
08/20/2018 11:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,996
Macon, Georgia
GlennA Offline
Traveler
GlennA  Offline
Traveler
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 10,996
Macon, Georgia
OK Now that everybdy has gotten that out of their systems, maybe we should close this one too.

Last edited by GlennA; 08/20/2018 11:30 PM.

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1