I just spoke to a contact that I trust in the BVI's. They stopped and impounded two vessels today for entering BVI waters. The boat he knew of personally was a 1/4 mile inside BVI waters. Sailing with no intention of landing onshore. This would normally be considered an innocent passage. He was fined twenty thousand dollars.

If you are chartering or sailing in USVI waters do not cross the border.

Jay - private boats or charter boats? If charter, what company?
I've was chased by the BVI patrol boat last summer. I believe I was inside US waters when they came to yell at me. But not necessarily clear on the chart plotter where the border is located. This past charter in November I made the first tack very early to make sure they understood I knew not to cross into BVI waters. When CPB is broke, bored, and paranoid bad things can happen.

All boats have a right of innocent passage and I believe the BVI has signed those accords. This should become a government to government issue.

The boat that I could confirm is private.

Tacking upwind in Drakes Passage - especially around the Narrows -- it is almost impossible not to cross into BVI waters .I did hear of a vessel being fined earlier this week.

WOW, I sailed around St John last month and I am pretty sure I crossed the line. I felt I was "innocent passage".

I would think CBP would recognize a boat with full sails underway is not trying to enter country and spread Covid 19. If sails dropped and idle speed, I could understand CBP taking a closer look.

The problem when you have mental midgets in CBP.

There is most certainly more to this story than a sailboat tacking upwind and crossing the border between the BVI and the USVI. Both countries UNCLOS signatories and due to the wind direction in the Sir Francis Drake Channel boats sailing upwind are forced to repeatedly cross the water border. Both border patrols know this and it is impossible for the officers not to know these rules. Hence there are elements in this that we haven't been told about.

If the boat was just sailing, then this case will go to Den Haag and the BVI will not only have to pay back fines and damages, but will get fined as well.

p.s. The U.S.A. and Britain are signatories of the Hague Conventions of 1899 and the BVI was grandfathered in as a British Overseas Territory. The international permanent court of arbitration is where this type of case would be heard, and it sits in Den Haag, Netherlands.

Very poor public relations for BVI. Especially a 20k fine??

I still can't find any corroboration of this anywhere. There are clear rules as to when the BVI might think that this is not innocent passage - the most likely one is if they were fishing..

http://www.virginislandsnewsonline.com/en/news/vessel-fined-20k-for-illegal-entry-another-detained

which island is in the foreground?

The BVI don’t go by the rules and maritime laws because each person in law enforcement go by what they think at the moment and don’t know most of the laws.
About 15 years ago a boat coming in from St Maarten arrived at night with their yellow flag up dropped anchor and in the morning had their boat confiscated before C&I opened and they were fined for illegal entry

Pretty sure we were seeing one of the BVI vessel monitoring boats anchored off Great Thatch last week while we were on St. John. Not a very good photo (sorry).

The wife/SO of the captain is Peggy Gregory. She is on FB and confirmed the incident. She went on to explain that the captain will be forthcoming with more information: "We will be giving facts to reliable sources ", she stated.

I've had a friend note that they might have been snorkeling in the Indians prior to getting stopped - might that be true?

If they stopped at the Indians they legally must clear customs.
G

Which is not currently possible. A big fine, but a stupid move, if true.

Exclusion Zone -- tough channel at Mary Pt /Narrows/ Great Thatch

https://bvi.gov.vg/sites/default/fi...vised_not_to_sail_in_exclusion_zone.jpeg

The owner of the vessel advised that they were not snorkeling over by the Indians.

That would explain the fines - a vessel entering the exclusion zone on the BVI side of the water border. I don't see any sunset date on that exclusion zone, but certainly hope that it will be rescinded on December 1st when the BVI opens up again.

I don’t think a exclusion zone is legal unless they drop out of the international agreements they have signed or they are taking direction from North Korea!

Looking into maritime law precedents there are cases to be made both for, and against, exclusion zones. see such references as https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1666&context=ils

Most likely the BVI's zone will be upheld - but I personally feel that they might have won a battle but doomed their war to failure.

The exclusion zone was set up to stop illegal entry and even BVI boats need permission to visit JVD using the direct route. If they were inside that zone then they were well inside BVI waters.

Here's a description of the exclusion zone: https://bvi.org.uk/boaters-advised-not-to-sail-in-exclusion-zone/

I suspect it has a typo. It says, "The exclusion zone is an area west of 64*38.300’W on the south side of Tortola." That longitude is about at Nanny Cay, and it would make a lot more sense for the zone to be east of that point. And in that case, the exclusion zone would not include the narrow area around Great Thatch, Little Thatch, and Frenchman's Cay.

Dan

Edited to add: OK, based on the posts below, please ignore this one:

The purpose of the exclusion zone is to prevent smuggling from the USVI into the BVI. So, as I understand it, they do not want unauthorized boats in the waters between St. John, St. Thomas and Tortola or the western islands.

Not a typo that is where the exclusion zone is you need permission to sail out of Nanny Cay directly towards JVD

Any updates if the fines and impound of the yacht were due to entering the exclusion zone or for other reasons?

BE CAREFUL OUT THERE
After delivering an Outbound 46 from Newport, RI to St Thomas last week, the owner Kevin Gregory, crew Andrew Dunbar, and myself went for a day sail to ease into society after nine days at sea. On Wednesday (Nov. 18), we were heading to Francis Bay, St John, USVI when we unwittingly sailed two miles beyond the US border, into BVI waters.

Within minutes a black hulled POLICE RIB pulls along and tells us to “stop the boat.” After brief questioning, the officer phoned his superiors, completes the call, requests our passports and ships documents, and escorts us to West End, BVI for processing.

While powering in, Kevin, a St Thomas resident was busily phoning attorneys and references to defend our case. Upon arrival at the customs dock, charges were filed for failure to report in upon entry to BVI water and failure to submit paperwork within 12 hours.

The essence here is that we weren’t intending to clear into BVI because our ultimate destination was a US harbor. However, after 27 hours and a $20,000 fine, we were released. Kevin was not allowed to take an exception before signing the admission of guilt.

Before we left, the BVI police brought in a US flagged 45’ yawl with two elderly couples, presumably for similar treatment, eventually escorting them to Road Harbour for processing. This is a money grab, be careful out there.

So basically the waters east of St. John and west of the exclusion "boarder" from the west end of Norman to Nanny Cay are a no fly zone for any boats? Certainly boats coming from USVI as described by TomSW. What about BVI-cleared boats transiting from, say, Road Town to JVD via Thatch Island Cut?

Permission needed from Customs for BVI boats or else take the long way around

I hope that this exclusion zone will be dropped upon the re-opening on December 1st!

BVI Love!!

Given these heavy handed tactics sailors who are truly transiting should be ready to keep sailing and immediately call the USCG. Better to run for US waters and deal with USCG/CBP than these thugs. Just another reason to re-think BVI as a chartering destination.

Maria and Steve--Looks to be exactly the same thing posted by TomSW here in this thread, earlier today..

Sorry, missed that post.

For the record, I was not the guy on the boat. I just re-posted what he wrote.

2 miles is a pretty big "mistake" if you know the borders are closed.

Tom--thanks for the clarification.

Maria and Steve--no problem, I just re-read your post a couple of times, trying to figure out if it was different.

Just read through this thread and Jason I agree "2 miles" is quite a distance with local knowledge (St Thomas owner). The author of the email might have been guestimating distance from the shoreline of St John? or actual border? Leinster Bay is 2nm from West End. I'm curious where the boat was approached. Either way, when people get jammed up like this do the stiff penalties usually get reduced? Unfortunate incident just sailing around.

Sounds like the sailors were held hostage until they paid the fine and signed an admission of guilt. No way it gets reduced now.

If you were out for a "day sail" from St Thomas to Francis Bay and take some long upwind tacks, then in just 15 minutes it's very easy to stray 2+ miles into BVI waters - while still remaining well outside their 'Exclusion Zone' - as you head towards Little Tobago and Great Tobago Islands before tacking back toward St John. I could see how one could let it happen if you weren't aware of the BVI territorial waters lockdown, or perhaps thought that the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas (UNCLOS) permitting Innocent Passage in territorial seas still prevailed.

I was sailing in the USVI's for three weeks from mid-Oct to early-Nov, and ventured over the border by a hundred yards or so on a couple of upwind and downwind tacks. However, I was very conscious of the 'surveillance' vessel (i.e. inter-island barge) anchored off Great Thatch Island as well as the British frigate observed on several occasions patrolling the waters between Norman Island and St John. I did not try to push my luck or get into a UNCLOS dispute with a BVI border patrol.

Perhaps it is old school
;[with all the electronics on board these days] but maybe calling on channel 16 announcing your intentions and need to possibly tack/travel through
a part of the exclusion zone as innocent passage under sail could avoid the detention and impoundment?

Well it is interesting how other countries deal with these sorts of issues. Back in April of this year we were in Sidney BC Canada watching vessel after vessel travel from the US to Canada, flying their Q flag. The CDN/US border was and still is closed for non-essential travel due to COVID. What was interesting is that the Canadian Coast Guard would approach the US flagged vessel in Canadian waters, give them a warning and escort them back into US waters. No fines were levied, no boats were impounded, a simple warning sufficed.

I can’t imagine getting escorted back to port and going to jail and then calling your bank and asking them to wire $20,000 because you accidentally crossed the boarder in the water by two miles. It seems like the OP is just taking it in stride. It’s such an unbelievable situation.

Maybe they should have told CBP they had symptoms for covid. Would CBP really want them coming ashore at that point?

That was the part that got me...we want to protect our borders but come ashore for 27 hours and hang out...

I’m confused. The area being discussed *IS* BVI waters, right? As pointed out, Innocence Passage can be disallowed in certain special circumstances (most governments appear to agree that “pandemic” qualifies).

Sailors often say its the captain’s responsibility, That’s because it is. Remember when rules were rules and laws were laws, and most people didn’t think of reasons of why the law breaker shouldn’t be punished. If we broke the law, we knew it and knew the consequences of getting caught. Ignorance and “accidentally” were not acceptable defenses.

Five pages and most responses seem to defend the boat captains; few “captains responsibility”. The consequences for the BVis may be worse than the punishment they are giving, but I’m not apt to defend the boat captains.

I think in this case the exclusion zone was enacted to prevent the daily smuggling coming in from STT. A sailboat tacking to lay the entrance into Francis Bay is a less than zero pandemic or smuggling threat. It’s like being fined 1000 dollars for being 1 MPH over the speed limit. Illegal, but not reasonable. The punishment should fit the crime.
G

Smuggling from St Thomas ? -- Kmart,CostUless and Home Depot -- they already had 2.5 Tons of Cocaine in Tortola!
Reminds me of a family sail to St Barths - middle of Anegada Passage - stopped,boarded and searched by USCG -- my young daughter looked the officer in the eye and said"People don't smuggle things INTO St Marteen"

They should consider themselves lucky they weren't forced to quarantine at their own cost for 14 days, tested, and then released. The original cost of quarantine for non-belongers was in the $7k each range for security, lodging, and food.

It’s called extortion.

According to this news article, the BVI are holding US citizens at this time.
https://wjla.com/features/7-on-your...ister-detained-in-british-virgin-islands

Wow, that's bad. Just bad.

Wow!

That is extreme and looks poorly on the BVI government. It makes my heart hurt for the locals.

Makes my heart hurt for the people who have been detained for 8 days.....

Such bad PR. So legally the boat captain brought the boat into BVI waters, but he has no money and the 2 older couples probably had no clue as to the location of the line between the 2 countries but they are being pressured into paying money to get released.. Full scale war between USA and BVI will not end well. Bring in the Navy seals to settle the score.

pathetic-

I am a big believer in Hanlon's Razor and believe that is what is happening here. Regardless, this is a terrible situation for those "incarcerated" and for the BVI in terms of public relations. But it certainly reinforces my decision to relocate my boat after almost 20 years in the BVI...

One wonders, is there an email address that US tourists could send an email to, to protest this?

Had to look that one up: Hanlon's razor, "never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

Sorry, I should have added that to my post; I'm so used to using it that I neglected to think of explaining

When I clicked on it, there was a link. Very apropos here.

Its a good one, and I agree there's a bit of that in play here. But, clearly not the whole story. There are extreme times for everyone, including and especially the people of the BVI. Lots of frustration and acting out. For me, I'm going to wait until Hurricane 'Rona blows over before making any decisions on moving our boat.😎

A long long time ago
I can still remember how
That sailing died how it used to make me smile
And I knew if I had my chance
That I could make those people dance
And maybe they'd be happy for a while

But November made me shiver
With every post that gets delivered
Bad news on the internet
I couldn't take one more step

I can't remember if I cried
When I read about his widowed bride
Something touched me deep inside
The day the sailing died

I'm a bit confused as to why you quoted "American Pie" - I can't see the connection here.

Zanshin--seems pretty clear to me...

I changed the words a wee bit.

I wonder how much of this is because the government is desperately short of cash?

When they seized the boat, did the leader of the boarders say, "Aargh! Either join me crew or walk the plank?" Because it kinda looks like that type of scenario to me.

"As soon as I realized that I had tacked too far, I found myself off the pirate coast of Somalia!"

I prefer "Occam's razor"....the simplest solution is usually the correct one

I would imagine BVI got tired of people not respecting the exclusion zone and found a few boats to make an example of to deter others.

At the end of the video the woman indicates 1 of the crew was supposed to be in quarantine in PR yet went out on the boat...

Regardless people tacking through th channel in no way or form can contaminate the citizens of the BVI.

This is a very serious issue so the stupid jokes are not appreciated. All one has to do, if you're not familiar with the waters which my husband is, is look at the map of St. John and the BVI, and according to the explanation by the passengers they were sailing from Maho Bay on St. John to Watermelon Cay, also on St. John. They had to sail around Mary Point, which depending on the wind, could slightly take them into BVI territorial waters inadvertently.

Agree...but once they dragged them to shore (which I don't think was the best idea) and found out they are probably making them all quarantine

I am not a sailor...just a passenger so I am trying to understand what happened with the couples currently detained in BVI.

If they were traveling from Maho to Watermelon around Mary's Point and were stopped 1.5 miles into BVI waters, where were they? The map seems to show less than a mile of distance between Mary's Point and BVI land. Would they tack way over and then tack back? 1.5 miles would be quite a ways into BVI territory.

Dept of State Travel Advisory for the BVI
Level 3 – Reconsider Travel: Avoid travel due to serious risks to safety and security. The Department of State provides additional advice for travelers in these areas in the Travel Advisory.

I doubt they had many people violating the exclusion zone in sailboats. Regardless a 500 or 1000 dollar fine would be sufficient. A daytime exclusion zone serves no function at all as far as Covid. At night perhaps but it would only be people intending to go ashore and or remain illegally in the BVI that would present a problem. Mostly that would be locals shopping and avoiding import duties. I once spent the night in water lemon cay. A friend brought a handheld nightscope. It looked like a highway running from the USVI and BVI. I was surprised there were not collisions with all those boats and no lights!
G

There has been a lot of talk about the "exclusion zone". That zone is for BVI based boats in BVI waters. They closed this area to their own boats when they reopened recreational boating to people already legally in the territory. This "exclusion zone" has nothing to do with the US side of the Narrows or anything to do with US boats. They do not have the jurisdiction to exclude US boats or any other boats legally in US waters from transiting the US side of the narrows. They do have the right to close the border and the boundary. The problem with these two incidents is not that the boats were stopped. The problem is the manner in which they were handled afterward. These are not ISIS fighters invading their borders. They weren't even the belongers that smuggled in the covid infected strippers. Which caused an outbreak that forcing their whole territory to shut down. They were two recreational boats out for daysails that made a bad decision to sail across the border. In normal times both of these incursions would have been considered innocent passage. Measured response of a stern warning would have been appropriate. This has and will continue to be an international incident. It will affect the goodwill of our whole industry. Both US and BVI based sailing will be affected by this decision. There are no winners in this.

Seems like a money grab to me. Taking them ashore during the pandemic defies logic. It would almost make one think that the BVI doesn't want tourists to come back....ever.

Captain Jay--excellent post...

Well said, Captain Jay.

Just saw this on BVI Abroad Facebook page....

"USA state dept travel advisory for the BVI
Level 3 – Reconsider Travel: Avoid travel due to serious risks to safety and security. The Department of State provides additional advice for travelers in these areas in the Travel Advisory."

Hi Capt Jay

you are misinformed about the Covid outbreak no strippers involved.

Just saw this on google news. Sounds like they were detained longer than 27 hours.


https://wjla.com/features/7-on-your...ister-detained-in-british-virgin-islands

Not strippers -- classified as poll workers for election.

Worst kept secret in the Caribbean. "Pole workers it is."

lcrich--same link already posted above. Still going on, apparently..

I just removed a couple of posts here, which had gone further off topic and into personal insults. You know guys, if this weren't such an IMPORTANT topic, I would lock it down right now.

Get back to the subject at hand. And this chippiness stops NOW.

Wow! I'm just realized I'm traversing USVI waters on nearly every trip out of Soper's Hole to Norman Island, and seems I remember having plenty of company. Looking at Google Earth, it appears I would need to head east to Nanny Cay before turning south.

Noel that is the exclusion zone,not territorial waters so hopefully you are safe.

My fear is that if this is not settled soon the US will ban travel to the BVI.

This is confusing. What exactly is the Exclusion Zone? Is the area west of the Norman-Nanny Cay line and east of the USVI/BVI border a no-fly zone?

Sounds to me like someone in Washington needs to talk to someone in London to get this sorted out.

There has been a lot of talk about the "exclusion zone". That zone is for BVI based boats in BVI waters. They closed this area to their own boats when they reopened recreational boating to people already legally in the territory. This "exclusion zone" has nothing to do with the US side of the Narrows or anything to do with US boats. They do not have the jurisdiction to exclude US boats or any other boats legally in US waters from transiting the US side of the narrows. They do have the right to close the border and the boundary. See the link below.
BVI Exclusion Zone

George--Frankly, I think the US should consider making that threat anyway. This whole thing is BS.. Total over-reaction.

As has been stated already, the BVI was within its rights in stopping the two boats in question. But their actions and reactions in these cases seem to have been grossly disproportionate to the transgressions involved and I, for one, hope that the BVI government learns that every action on their part has an equal and opposite reaction. Unfortunately the citizens of the BVI will have to bear the brunt of any sanctions - but perhaps the bureaucrats and politicians involved will suffer as well; perhaps sooner than the next elections.

Yes, a gross over-reaction to minor transgressions.

Maybe I am missing something but why exactly is the US going to "threaten" a strong ally for doing something that is totally within its rights under recognized international law?

Never ever been a fan of the BVI government but they clearly indicated here with these 2 examples if you want to play loosely with their boundaries and rules there is a price to pay. As a Captain I stay away from international boundaries in normal times (or at least make my intentions publicly known) and here the BVI have telegraphed their intentions repeatedly on this and have had Covid come into BVI from people not respecting their boundaries.

I agree with Zanshin that BVI has a complete disregard for their goodwill among both tourists and the BVI businesses that support tourism....

But "International Incident"....highly unlikely.

Even this matter this week between UK and USA which was tragic never rose to an "International Incident"
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/wo...24-o5m2fjap3bg3lhv2o6enhixwb4-story.html

The lesson here for serious Captains is don't mess with their boundaries.

They are holding US citizens without any charges being filed. They have given no notice of when they will be charged or released. They were passengers on the boat and not the skipper. This is treatment you expect from North Korea not the BVI. There is also the concept of innocent passage and how it applies to exclusion zones. There is some question if this exclusion zone is even legal given other accords the BVI has agreed to abide by.

My friend I don't believe this involves the exclusion zone as Captain Jay pointed out....

if they were truly 2 miles inside BVI waters then I don't know how the "innocent passage" plays out and if 2 miles then it couldn't be going around Mary Point as 2 miles would put them north of Thatch.

I am quite sure as good as a captain and a pilot as you are you wouldn't make this "mistake" especially given the circumstances. Was the punishment overly harsh? For sure...

Does it come up to the standard of Otto Warmbier in North Korea? Not even close. I would point out the other boat was released so I imagine they are holding this boat for quarantine since 1 crew member publicly admitted that they broke quarantine in PR.

Again I am not a fan of the BVI government but do understand, respect, and appreciate the rule of law....

Where did the fact "2 miles" come from?

That was posted from the people aboard the impounded sailboat, the link is somewhere in this thread. I wondered about that distance as well, since 2 miles is more than an insignificant "incursion" in that area (considering the Sir Francis Drake passage has a distance of about 2 miles from Tortola to St. Thomas in the exclusion zone and the sea-border runs through the middle...)

Here is an updated thread...note the hearing is on Monday. The people on the boat claim they were "1.5 miles" in BVI and were leaving Maho bay for "another close place to snorkle" on the video.

https://wjla.com/news/local/virgini...ister-detained-in-british-virgin-islands

Well, that's pretty interesting..

So for a brief moment there was a post here from Sleepychef that referenced the 4 were at the "Indians" and this statement...don't know what happened to his post as it is gone now but here is the link.

https://bvi.gov.vg/media-centre/sta...ding-four-persons-entering-bvi-illegally

That BVI government post is highly disingenuous. It basically says that the US news post is wrong, but doesn't supply any corroborating information apart from stating that they have placed the people involved in quarantine at the government's expense (we'll see if that turns out to be true - I'm highly suspicious of that statement and would be really surprised if those under quarantine aren't charged for the privilege). And I can't believe that they can post an article describing this house-arrest and "BVILOVE" at the same time! "We love you, but we'll detain you anyway and please tell your friends to visit, too..."

sleepychef must have deleted that link himself, as that was what I was responding to.

agree Zanshin but don't think the story from the 4 is genuine either...will know more on Monday

BVI is clearly losing the PR battle....

I am sure the BVI has caught others who actually intended to enter and go ashore in the BVI illegally. The earlier covid outbreak being a example. Does anyone know if those individuals were required to pay a 20,000.00 dollar fine and if not what the punishments were? Does the BVI differentiate between a honest mistake that posed zero covid threat until they were apprehended verses those who actually pose a threat with illegal entry?

I had read that they left maho and were sailing in the direction
of Jost with the intention of tacking back over. Who the heck knows

Here is another story that just resolved as well...

https://www.seafoodsource.com/news/...tish-virgin-islands-finally-returns-home

I think the other great lesson is if you have an issue get legal help ASAP. I would note boat 1 that was released apparently had legal counsel on the phone before they docked and the issue was resolved. This boat on the other hand decided to broadcast to the world that they were guilty and had even broken PR quarantine....a good attorney would have not only advised them to be quiet but at least make sure if you aren't you don't admit wrongdoing publicly in a further attempt to embarrass an already embarrassed BVI. In the Foy matter in the link even the US involvement didn't really alter the outcome with the exception of possibly reducing his fine....

I am not condoning BVIs behavior here but I think it is a strong warning for all serious captains

The people who were caught entering while the borders are closed are simply being quarantined just like any belonger or resident entering the BVI at this time. They are in the same hotel everyone stays in when quarantining. The cost is being covered by the BVI citizens and based on the cost to quarantine 4 people, the $20k does not come close. They are lucky the full quarantine cost wasn't passed on to them along with the fines.

Interesting. Wonder why there wasn't some official word from the government to that effect before now? And the press release seemed to indicate that they were being criminally charged, but the timing seemed to be AFTER the story came out in the news.. So, are they being criminally charged?

You generally don’t drag someone into your country to place them in quarantine. They are being held under guard against their will. The standard term for that is arrest.

That is how quarantine has been done here since June. If only they'd waited until December 1 to violate the border, they could have quarantined for only 4 days.

Completely agree. It makes zero sense. If this is simply to protect the BVI from COVID-19, they should have been warned and escorted back across the border. No contact and zero risk to anyone.

I'd guess there's more to the story or they got tired of warning people and needed to send a message. The timing seems like the perfect time to send a message as USVI charters will be increasing closer to the holiday season. Immigration officers in most countries have a reputation of being strict and that's for a reason. Just because it's normally a "softer" sea border does not make it OK to assume there will be a warning.

I understand boats need to have space to tack but I'm also pretty sure that boat has a engine and not need to tack thru a narrow channel just because they felt like day sailing.

Completely agree with Jason...they sent a loud and clear message after signaling multiple times (e.g. inviting UK to help protect borders, setting up barges to monitor, issuing warnings, Foy matter) that they were getting "serious" about their border especially after being embarrassed about the smuggling operation and someone sneaking in from STT and infecting people with COVID and I believe causing a lockdown.

If people want to continue to poke the bear backed in the corner there will be consequences...

We will find out today what exactly they are charged with.

I have to disagree, the boaters aren’t pulling into port and in no way is there a chance to pass on a disease while out in the open water.

Apparently the court date for these folks was delayed till later on in the week, not sure why. Anyone have any info? By that time a 14 day quarantine would have expired, no??

Link