I just spoke to a contact that I trust in the BVI's. They stopped and impounded two vessels today for entering BVI waters. The boat he knew of personally was a 1/4 mile inside BVI waters. Sailing with no intention of landing onshore. This would normally be considered an innocent passage. He was fined twenty thousand dollars.
If you are chartering or sailing in USVI waters do not cross the border.
Jay - private boats or charter boats? If charter, what company? I've was chased by the BVI patrol boat last summer. I believe I was inside US waters when they came to yell at me. But not necessarily clear on the chart plotter where the border is located. This past charter in November I made the first tack very early to make sure they understood I knew not to cross into BVI waters. When CPB is broke, bored, and paranoid bad things can happen.
Tacking upwind in Drakes Passage - especially around the Narrows -- it is almost impossible not to cross into BVI waters .I did hear of a vessel being fined earlier this week.
WOW, I sailed around St John last month and I am pretty sure I crossed the line. I felt I was "innocent passage".
I would think CBP would recognize a boat with full sails underway is not trying to enter country and spread Covid 19. If sails dropped and idle speed, I could understand CBP taking a closer look.
WOW, I sailed around St John last month and I am pretty sure I crossed the line. I felt I was "innocent passage".
I would think CBP would recognize a boat with full sails underway is not trying to enter country and spread Covid 19. If sails dropped and idle speed, I could understand CBP taking a closer look.
There is most certainly more to this story than a sailboat tacking upwind and crossing the border between the BVI and the USVI. Both countries UNCLOS signatories and due to the wind direction in the Sir Francis Drake Channel boats sailing upwind are forced to repeatedly cross the water border. Both border patrols know this and it is impossible for the officers not to know these rules. Hence there are elements in this that we haven't been told about.
If the boat was just sailing, then this case will go to Den Haag and the BVI will not only have to pay back fines and damages, but will get fined as well.
p.s. The U.S.A. and Britain are signatories of the Hague Conventions of 1899 and the BVI was grandfathered in as a British Overseas Territory. The international permanent court of arbitration is where this type of case would be heard, and it sits in Den Haag, Netherlands.
Last edited by Zanshin; 11/20/202003:49 AM. Reason: Added postscript
I still can't find any corroboration of this anywhere. There are clear rules as to when the BVI might think that this is not innocent passage - the most likely one is if they were fishing..
The BVI don’t go by the rules and maritime laws because each person in law enforcement go by what they think at the moment and don’t know most of the laws. About 15 years ago a boat coming in from St Maarten arrived at night with their yellow flag up dropped anchor and in the morning had their boat confiscated before C&I opened and they were fined for illegal entry
Pretty sure we were seeing one of the BVI vessel monitoring boats anchored off Great Thatch last week while we were on St. John. Not a very good photo (sorry).
The wife/SO of the captain is Peggy Gregory. She is on FB and confirmed the incident. She went on to explain that the captain will be forthcoming with more information: "We will be giving facts to reliable sources ", she stated.
That would explain the fines - a vessel entering the exclusion zone on the BVI side of the water border. I don't see any sunset date on that exclusion zone, but certainly hope that it will be rescinded on December 1st when the BVI opens up again.
I don’t think a exclusion zone is legal unless they drop out of the international agreements they have signed or they are taking direction from North Korea!
The exclusion zone was set up to stop illegal entry and even BVI boats need permission to visit JVD using the direct route. If they were inside that zone then they were well inside BVI waters.
I suspect it has a typo. It says, "The exclusion zone is an area west of 64*38.300’W on the south side of Tortola." That longitude is about at Nanny Cay, and it would make a lot more sense for the zone to be east of that point. And in that case, the exclusion zone would not include the narrow area around Great Thatch, Little Thatch, and Frenchman's Cay.
Dan
Edited to add: OK, based on the posts below, please ignore this one:
The purpose of the exclusion zone is to prevent smuggling from the USVI into the BVI. So, as I understand it, they do not want unauthorized boats in the waters between St. John, St. Thomas and Tortola or the western islands.
BE CAREFUL OUT THERE After delivering an Outbound 46 from Newport, RI to St Thomas last week, the owner Kevin Gregory, crew Andrew Dunbar, and myself went for a day sail to ease into society after nine days at sea. On Wednesday (Nov. 18), we were heading to Francis Bay, St John, USVI when we unwittingly sailed two miles beyond the US border, into BVI waters.
Within minutes a black hulled POLICE RIB pulls along and tells us to “stop the boat.” After brief questioning, the officer phoned his superiors, completes the call, requests our passports and ships documents, and escorts us to West End, BVI for processing.
While powering in, Kevin, a St Thomas resident was busily phoning attorneys and references to defend our case. Upon arrival at the customs dock, charges were filed for failure to report in upon entry to BVI water and failure to submit paperwork within 12 hours.
The essence here is that we weren’t intending to clear into BVI because our ultimate destination was a US harbor. However, after 27 hours and a $20,000 fine, we were released. Kevin was not allowed to take an exception before signing the admission of guilt.
Before we left, the BVI police brought in a US flagged 45’ yawl with two elderly couples, presumably for similar treatment, eventually escorting them to Road Harbour for processing. This is a money grab, be careful out there.
So basically the waters east of St. John and west of the exclusion "boarder" from the west end of Norman to Nanny Cay are a no fly zone for any boats? Certainly boats coming from USVI as described by TomSW. What about BVI-cleared boats transiting from, say, Road Town to JVD via Thatch Island Cut?
Given these heavy handed tactics sailors who are truly transiting should be ready to keep sailing and immediately call the USCG. Better to run for US waters and deal with USCG/CBP than these thugs. Just another reason to re-think BVI as a chartering destination.
Just read through this thread and Jason I agree "2 miles" is quite a distance with local knowledge (St Thomas owner). The author of the email might have been guestimating distance from the shoreline of St John? or actual border? Leinster Bay is 2nm from West End. I'm curious where the boat was approached. Either way, when people get jammed up like this do the stiff penalties usually get reduced? Unfortunate incident just sailing around.
Just read through this thread and Jason I agree "2 miles" is quite a distance with local knowledge (St Thomas owner). The author of the email might have been guestimating distance from the shoreline of St John? or actual border? Leinster Bay is 2nm from West End. I'm curious where the boat was approached. Either way, when people get jammed up like this do the stiff penalties usually get reduced? Unfortunate incident just sailing around.
Sounds like the sailors were held hostage until they paid the fine and signed an admission of guilt. No way it gets reduced now.
If you were out for a "day sail" from St Thomas to Francis Bay and take some long upwind tacks, then in just 15 minutes it's very easy to stray 2+ miles into BVI waters - while still remaining well outside their 'Exclusion Zone' - as you head towards Little Tobago and Great Tobago Islands before tacking back toward St John. I could see how one could let it happen if you weren't aware of the BVI territorial waters lockdown, or perhaps thought that the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas (UNCLOS) permitting Innocent Passage in territorial seas still prevailed.
I was sailing in the USVI's for three weeks from mid-Oct to early-Nov, and ventured over the border by a hundred yards or so on a couple of upwind and downwind tacks. However, I was very conscious of the 'surveillance' vessel (i.e. inter-island barge) anchored off Great Thatch Island as well as the British frigate observed on several occasions patrolling the waters between Norman Island and St John. I did not try to push my luck or get into a UNCLOS dispute with a BVI border patrol.
Perhaps it is old school ;[with all the electronics on board these days] but maybe calling on channel 16 announcing your intentions and need to possibly tack/travel through a part of the exclusion zone as innocent passage under sail could avoid the detention and impoundment?
Well it is interesting how other countries deal with these sorts of issues. Back in April of this year we were in Sidney BC Canada watching vessel after vessel travel from the US to Canada, flying their Q flag. The CDN/US border was and still is closed for non-essential travel due to COVID. What was interesting is that the Canadian Coast Guard would approach the US flagged vessel in Canadian waters, give them a warning and escort them back into US waters. No fines were levied, no boats were impounded, a simple warning sufficed.
I can’t imagine getting escorted back to port and going to jail and then calling your bank and asking them to wire $20,000 because you accidentally crossed the boarder in the water by two miles. It seems like the OP is just taking it in stride. It’s such an unbelievable situation.
I’m confused. The area being discussed *IS* BVI waters, right? As pointed out, Innocence Passage can be disallowed in certain special circumstances (most governments appear to agree that “pandemic” qualifies).
Sailors often say its the captain’s responsibility, That’s because it is. Remember when rules were rules and laws were laws, and most people didn’t think of reasons of why the law breaker shouldn’t be punished. If we broke the law, we knew it and knew the consequences of getting caught. Ignorance and “accidentally” were not acceptable defenses.
Five pages and most responses seem to defend the boat captains; few “captains responsibility”. The consequences for the BVis may be worse than the punishment they are giving, but I’m not apt to defend the boat captains.
I think in this case the exclusion zone was enacted to prevent the daily smuggling coming in from STT. A sailboat tacking to lay the entrance into Francis Bay is a less than zero pandemic or smuggling threat. It’s like being fined 1000 dollars for being 1 MPH over the speed limit. Illegal, but not reasonable. The punishment should fit the crime. G
Smuggling from St Thomas ? -- Kmart,CostUless and Home Depot -- they already had 2.5 Tons of Cocaine in Tortola! Reminds me of a family sail to St Barths - middle of Anegada Passage - stopped,boarded and searched by USCG -- my young daughter looked the officer in the eye and said"People don't smuggle things INTO St Marteen"
Maybe they should have told CBP they had symptoms for covid. Would CBP really want them coming ashore at that point?
That was the part that got me...we want to protect our borders but come ashore for 27 hours and hang out...
They should consider themselves lucky they weren't forced to quarantine at their own cost for 14 days, tested, and then released. The original cost of quarantine for non-belongers was in the $7k each range for security, lodging, and food.
I can’t imagine getting escorted back to port and going to jail and then calling your bank and asking them to wire $20,000 because you accidentally crossed the boarder in the water by two miles. It seems like the OP is just taking it in stride. It’s such an unbelievable situation.
Such bad PR. So legally the boat captain brought the boat into BVI waters, but he has no money and the 2 older couples probably had no clue as to the location of the line between the 2 countries but they are being pressured into paying money to get released.. Full scale war between USA and BVI will not end well. Bring in the Navy seals to settle the score.
I am a big believer in Hanlon's Razor and believe that is what is happening here. Regardless, this is a terrible situation for those "incarcerated" and for the BVI in terms of public relations. But it certainly reinforces my decision to relocate my boat after almost 20 years in the BVI...
Sorry, I should have added that to my post; I'm so used to using it that I neglected to think of explaining
Its a good one, and I agree there's a bit of that in play here. But, clearly not the whole story. There are extreme times for everyone, including and especially the people of the BVI. Lots of frustration and acting out. For me, I'm going to wait until Hurricane 'Rona blows over before making any decisions on moving our boat.😎
A long long time ago I can still remember how That sailing died how it used to make me smile And I knew if I had my chance That I could make those people dance And maybe they'd be happy for a while
But November made me shiver With every post that gets delivered Bad news on the internet I couldn't take one more step
I can't remember if I cried When I read about his widowed bride Something touched me deep inside The day the sailing died
When they seized the boat, did the leader of the boarders say, "Aargh! Either join me crew or walk the plank?" Because it kinda looks like that type of scenario to me.
"As soon as I realized that I had tacked too far, I found myself off the pirate coast of Somalia!"
This is a very serious issue so the stupid jokes are not appreciated. All one has to do, if you're not familiar with the waters which my husband is, is look at the map of St. John and the BVI, and according to the explanation by the passengers they were sailing from Maho Bay on St. John to Watermelon Cay, also on St. John. They had to sail around Mary Point, which depending on the wind, could slightly take them into BVI territorial waters inadvertently.
I am not a sailor...just a passenger so I am trying to understand what happened with the couples currently detained in BVI.
If they were traveling from Maho to Watermelon around Mary's Point and were stopped 1.5 miles into BVI waters, where were they? The map seems to show less than a mile of distance between Mary's Point and BVI land. Would they tack way over and then tack back? 1.5 miles would be quite a ways into BVI territory.
Dept of State Travel Advisory for the BVI Level 3 – Reconsider Travel: Avoid travel due to serious risks to safety and security. The Department of State provides additional advice for travelers in these areas in the Travel Advisory.
I doubt they had many people violating the exclusion zone in sailboats. Regardless a 500 or 1000 dollar fine would be sufficient. A daytime exclusion zone serves no function at all as far as Covid. At night perhaps but it would only be people intending to go ashore and or remain illegally in the BVI that would present a problem. Mostly that would be locals shopping and avoiding import duties. I once spent the night in water lemon cay. A friend brought a handheld nightscope. It looked like a highway running from the USVI and BVI. I was surprised there were not collisions with all those boats and no lights! G
There has been a lot of talk about the "exclusion zone". That zone is for BVI based boats in BVI waters. They closed this area to their own boats when they reopened recreational boating to people already legally in the territory. This "exclusion zone" has nothing to do with the US side of the Narrows or anything to do with US boats. They do not have the jurisdiction to exclude US boats or any other boats legally in US waters from transiting the US side of the narrows. They do have the right to close the border and the boundary. The problem with these two incidents is not that the boats were stopped. The problem is the manner in which they were handled afterward. These are not ISIS fighters invading their borders. They weren't even the belongers that smuggled in the covid infected strippers. Which caused an outbreak that forcing their whole territory to shut down. They were two recreational boats out for daysails that made a bad decision to sail across the border. In normal times both of these incursions would have been considered innocent passage. Measured response of a stern warning would have been appropriate. This has and will continue to be an international incident. It will affect the goodwill of our whole industry. Both US and BVI based sailing will be affected by this decision. There are no winners in this.
Seems like a money grab to me. Taking them ashore during the pandemic defies logic. It would almost make one think that the BVI doesn't want tourists to come back....ever.
"USA state dept travel advisory for the BVI Level 3 – Reconsider Travel: Avoid travel due to serious risks to safety and security. The Department of State provides additional advice for travelers in these areas in the Travel Advisory."
I just removed a couple of posts here, which had gone further off topic and into personal insults. You know guys, if this weren't such an IMPORTANT topic, I would lock it down right now.
Get back to the subject at hand. And this chippiness stops NOW.
Wow! I'm just realized I'm traversing USVI waters on nearly every trip out of Soper's Hole to Norman Island, and seems I remember having plenty of company. Looking at Google Earth, it appears I would need to head east to Nanny Cay before turning south.
Noel Hall "It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."
There has been a lot of talk about the "exclusion zone". That zone is for BVI based boats in BVI waters. They closed this area to their own boats when they reopened recreational boating to people already legally in the territory. This "exclusion zone" has nothing to do with the US side of the Narrows or anything to do with US boats. They do not have the jurisdiction to exclude US boats or any other boats legally in US waters from transiting the US side of the narrows. They do have the right to close the border and the boundary. See the link below. BVI Exclusion Zone
As has been stated already, the BVI was within its rights in stopping the two boats in question. But their actions and reactions in these cases seem to have been grossly disproportionate to the transgressions involved and I, for one, hope that the BVI government learns that every action on their part has an equal and opposite reaction. Unfortunately the citizens of the BVI will have to bear the brunt of any sanctions - but perhaps the bureaucrats and politicians involved will suffer as well; perhaps sooner than the next elections.
Maybe I am missing something but why exactly is the US going to "threaten" a strong ally for doing something that is totally within its rights under recognized international law?
Never ever been a fan of the BVI government but they clearly indicated here with these 2 examples if you want to play loosely with their boundaries and rules there is a price to pay. As a Captain I stay away from international boundaries in normal times (or at least make my intentions publicly known) and here the BVI have telegraphed their intentions repeatedly on this and have had Covid come into BVI from people not respecting their boundaries.
I agree with Zanshin that BVI has a complete disregard for their goodwill among both tourists and the BVI businesses that support tourism....
They are holding US citizens without any charges being filed. They have given no notice of when they will be charged or released. They were passengers on the boat and not the skipper. This is treatment you expect from North Korea not the BVI. There is also the concept of innocent passage and how it applies to exclusion zones. There is some question if this exclusion zone is even legal given other accords the BVI has agreed to abide by.
My friend I don't believe this involves the exclusion zone as Captain Jay pointed out....
if they were truly 2 miles inside BVI waters then I don't know how the "innocent passage" plays out and if 2 miles then it couldn't be going around Mary Point as 2 miles would put them north of Thatch.
I am quite sure as good as a captain and a pilot as you are you wouldn't make this "mistake" especially given the circumstances. Was the punishment overly harsh? For sure...
Does it come up to the standard of Otto Warmbier in North Korea? Not even close. I would point out the other boat was released so I imagine they are holding this boat for quarantine since 1 crew member publicly admitted that they broke quarantine in PR.
Again I am not a fan of the BVI government but do understand, respect, and appreciate the rule of law....
That was posted from the people aboard the impounded sailboat, the link is somewhere in this thread. I wondered about that distance as well, since 2 miles is more than an insignificant "incursion" in that area (considering the Sir Francis Drake passage has a distance of about 2 miles from Tortola to St. Thomas in the exclusion zone and the sea-border runs through the middle...)
Here is an updated thread...note the hearing is on Monday. The people on the boat claim they were "1.5 miles" in BVI and were leaving Maho bay for "another close place to snorkle" on the video.
So for a brief moment there was a post here from Sleepychef that referenced the 4 were at the "Indians" and this statement...don't know what happened to his post as it is gone now but here is the link.
That BVI government post is highly disingenuous. It basically says that the US news post is wrong, but doesn't supply any corroborating information apart from stating that they have placed the people involved in quarantine at the government's expense (we'll see if that turns out to be true - I'm highly suspicious of that statement and would be really surprised if those under quarantine aren't charged for the privilege). And I can't believe that they can post an article describing this house-arrest and "BVILOVE" at the same time! "We love you, but we'll detain you anyway and please tell your friends to visit, too..."
I am sure the BVI has caught others who actually intended to enter and go ashore in the BVI illegally. The earlier covid outbreak being a example. Does anyone know if those individuals were required to pay a 20,000.00 dollar fine and if not what the punishments were? Does the BVI differentiate between a honest mistake that posed zero covid threat until they were apprehended verses those who actually pose a threat with illegal entry?
I think the other great lesson is if you have an issue get legal help ASAP. I would note boat 1 that was released apparently had legal counsel on the phone before they docked and the issue was resolved. This boat on the other hand decided to broadcast to the world that they were guilty and had even broken PR quarantine....a good attorney would have not only advised them to be quiet but at least make sure if you aren't you don't admit wrongdoing publicly in a further attempt to embarrass an already embarrassed BVI. In the Foy matter in the link even the US involvement didn't really alter the outcome with the exception of possibly reducing his fine....
I am not condoning BVIs behavior here but I think it is a strong warning for all serious captains
The people who were caught entering while the borders are closed are simply being quarantined just like any belonger or resident entering the BVI at this time. They are in the same hotel everyone stays in when quarantining. The cost is being covered by the BVI citizens and based on the cost to quarantine 4 people, the $20k does not come close. They are lucky the full quarantine cost wasn't passed on to them along with the fines.
Interesting. Wonder why there wasn't some official word from the government to that effect before now? And the press release seemed to indicate that they were being criminally charged, but the timing seemed to be AFTER the story came out in the news.. So, are they being criminally charged?
You generally don’t drag someone into your country to place them in quarantine. They are being held under guard against their will. The standard term for that is arrest.
That is how quarantine has been done here since June. If only they'd waited until December 1 to violate the border, they could have quarantined for only 4 days.
You generally don’t drag someone into your country to place them in quarantine. They are being held under guard against their will. The standard term for that is arrest.
Completely agree. It makes zero sense. If this is simply to protect the BVI from COVID-19, they should have been warned and escorted back across the border. No contact and zero risk to anyone.
You generally don’t drag someone into your country to place them in quarantine. They are being held under guard against their will. The standard term for that is arrest.
Completely agree. It makes zero sense. If this is simply to protect the BVI from COVID-19, they should have been warned and escorted back across the border. No contact and zero risk to anyone.
I'd guess there's more to the story or they got tired of warning people and needed to send a message. The timing seems like the perfect time to send a message as USVI charters will be increasing closer to the holiday season. Immigration officers in most countries have a reputation of being strict and that's for a reason. Just because it's normally a "softer" sea border does not make it OK to assume there will be a warning.
I understand boats need to have space to tack but I'm also pretty sure that boat has a engine and not need to tack thru a narrow channel just because they felt like day sailing.
Completely agree with Jason...they sent a loud and clear message after signaling multiple times (e.g. inviting UK to help protect borders, setting up barges to monitor, issuing warnings, Foy matter) that they were getting "serious" about their border especially after being embarrassed about the smuggling operation and someone sneaking in from STT and infecting people with COVID and I believe causing a lockdown.
If people want to continue to poke the bear backed in the corner there will be consequences...
We will find out today what exactly they are charged with.
Apparently the court date for these folks was delayed till later on in the week, not sure why. Anyone have any info? By that time a 14 day quarantine would have expired, no??
Not taking up for the captain(Professional captain?) but on what site would the typical charter captain know that this exclusion zone had been set? I am a pilot and familiar with NOTAMS to airmen, but unsure regarding similar notices for seamen.
There was a rough description of the exclusion boundaries on Noonsite. The boundary that they crossed was a line between West End point and the western most point on Jost. I think some confusion is that 1.5 NM inside BVI waters is not the same as being inside the exclusion zone. Latest seeming reliable info I have is they were "NE of Great Thatch about 1.5nm inside BVI waters starting to tack through the Narrows". That statement is a bit ambiguous but here is a worse case SWAG.
I plotted a line 1.5 nm north of the boundary as indicated on Imray A231 and a line NE from the center of Great Thatch and they cross about 1/4 NM inside the exclusion zone. That is just about where a cat on an ENE course would tack to make the Narrows. A mono would probably tack a little sooner.
Any legal hounds out there might find it interesting to review UN Convention on Laws of the Seas (UNCLOS) Articles 19 and 25. If this were to happen to someone with very deep pockets and a strong sense of principles (or retribution) he could cause the BVI government considerable pain.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
GlennA - I've already referenced the UNCLOS in this thread. Unfortunately, the exclusion zone preempts that. Just try to sail through a prohibited zone marked on the charts in U.S. waters and you'll get stopped there in a heartbeat - but unless there are other factors involved they won't throw you in the brig or fine you $20K or impound the boat.
I just hope that the exclusion zone is lifted as it will put a huge damper on any sailing activities in that area.
I guess I would wonder if you are Maho Bay as they claimed and want to go to Leinster Bay to snorkel as people have indicated why you are even putting the sails up....
It made the New York Post yesterday. https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/us-boaters-detained-for-sailing-into-british-virgin-islands-seas/. Yes, when we go from Maho to Leinster we motor not sail around Mary Point and give it a wide berth because of how rocky and craggy it is. Ok, so the hostages sailed over according to their testimony. If what they say is true, and they just entered into BVI waters 1.5 nm as they were going around Mary Point, then give them a warning, a stern warning. Don't incarcerate them and charge them $20,000! They were not entering land and about to spread covid on the island. By my count this is the 13th day of captivity. Why was yesterday's hearing delayed?
Don't know why the hearing was delayed, but according to my calculation if it's the end of the week, the 14 day quarantine would have expired. Perhaps they made some deal that they wouldn't actually charge them with anything if the clear the 14 days quarantine and then they will just let them go at that point??
Politicians often do some stupid things in a panic or trying to make one size fit all. We’ve seen that in the US and I suspect the same in this instance. After having traffic back and forth to St. Thomas, certainly some well publicized involving drugs and weapons, and bringing Covid along, they decided to clamp down on security and expended resources to do it.
So they “caught” two old couples on a tack in a sailboat with no contraband and no intention of going ashore and in their one size fits all mindset, forced them ashore and have essentially held them hostage for many days.
They may as some claim be perfectly within their rights in doing so and their claim overrides innocent passage, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t dumb as a box of hammers.
The bvi has often hit people hard in the pocketbook for fishing in their waters without permits but the public view of this insistence on 20,000 $ in cash, appears to be a shakedown. It has all the markings of a small town catching someone for minor traffic violations and locking em up until they paid thousands in ransom, er fines.
But in a country beset with a terrible economy, with banking suffering before tourism tanked and obviously not great political leadership as evidenced by the disasterous December 1 reopening and letting this fiasco get out of hand, those leaders seem to be doubling down on dumb.
The quicker they clear this up for “humanitarian concerns” , the less damage to their brand. Never go broke betting on a bureaucrat to do something stupid and compounding it. It will be forgotten but will hurt on the margin and didn’t have to happen.
One of the crew members is posting on Facebook (Jeanne). She posted yesterday afternoon that a Covid test is now required before the captain appears in court. She posted a picture of their hotel room, which she said is 'bug free and has air conditioning', and apparently they have access to the Internet. The picture reflects the room to be a typical 3 star BVI hotel room. Her comments seem to suggest they are confined to the room, have an attorney, but can't seem to get a 'straight answer' to what is going to happen and when. Just what I have summarized from the comments, I have no personal information.
It appears she updated Facebook this morning, stating they had a Covid test and are scheduled to appear in court at 2:00 this afternoon.
Last edited by NoelHall; 12/01/202005:44 PM.
Noel Hall "It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."
The BVI has a reputation for treating tourists poorly... We typically ignore that because of the pristine sailing grounds... But, there have been multiple incidents of tourists ending up in the “gut”. I remember about 10 years ago they imprisoned a US citizen for fishing in BVI waters and fined him $45,000. Eerily similar... Reminds me of Mexico when police would stop you for “speeding” and demand cash. Extortion. It’s common in corrupt countries...
The BVI has a reputation for treating tourists poorly... We typically ignore that because of the pristine sailing grounds... But, there have been multiple incidents of tourists ending up in the “gut”. I remember about 10 years ago they imprisoned a US citizen for fishing in BVI waters and fined him $45,000. Eerily similar... Reminds me of Mexico when police would stop you for “speeding” and demand cash. Extortion. It’s common in corrupt countries...
You are so correct because the average charterer goes there and the first thing they do is Kiss up to people and start handing them $20 tips for just breathing or putting a smile on their faces. After decades the locals think all tourists are idiots and easy.
Sail445, the post you are replying to is talking about the BVI government while you are talking about workers. It has been our experience to tip more generously since Irma. The folks there suffered so very much because of Irma.
Hey BVILOVE - Was all this worldwide negative press really worth a $4000 fine? In the name of protecting the BVI from COVID, you forced them to land on your shores. You could have had your border patrol issue a warning and escort them for 10 minutes back to the water border.
At least it served to momentarily distract the public's attention from the 1/4 Billion dollar drug bust or Fahie's restart of the $150M+ airport runway expansion into Trellis Bay (despite campaign promises to expand ferry service).
I'll admit, I'm only a novice credit card captain. The definition of 'passage' in my mind is departing point 'A' and headed to 'point 'B. I'm not sure I understand how leaving St. Thomas and headed to St. Francis Bay would typically include a 'fly by' of the Soggy Dollar Bar on Jost Van Dyke. It sounds more like a pleasure sail in the waters of a foreign country with no intent of actually stopping. I would agree the consequences seem very steep for conduct that was previously condoned, although a tough time to 'assume' anything in respect to the possibility of new restrictions in the territorial waters of any Caribbean country due to Covid-19. I am sorry and sympathize with the crews of both boats, although it has certainly sent a very publicized message to anyone thinking of innocently sailing into foreign waters until this virus is behind us. Just my personal comment, I'm not a source of knowledge or authority of anything.
Noel Hall "It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."
They got off easy with a $1k fine each. When the borders first reopened, the cost to quarantine in the government hotels was around $3k for non-belongers. They should have had to pay that as well.
So typical that the so-called authorities don’t know the law and definitely don’t have a clue on how to interpret it. But on the positive side if they knew and strictly adhered to the law these beautiful islands would turn into a crowded strict metropolis
Perhaps, but the money they would get charging for quarantine like the $4000 in fines would not pay for the horribly bad publicity. Besides they might have opened themselves up to cruel and unusual punishment incarcerating two long married couples in one dingy hotel room.
Though way too late someone wiser than those who forced the boat ashore, demanded $20,000 cash, threw 4 elderly US citizens in a crappy room for several days, told the bureaucrats to “Stop digging”.
I’m sure after scamming 20k off the sailor mentioned above who didn’t raise a ruckus, they thought it would be a good revenue source. Oops
From the capt of the Sailing Anarchy boat: "Having only just arrived in-territory, I had no benefit of this “common knowledge”. Instead, they detained us ashore where, if we were COVID positive, we could expose their citizens to the disease. No, this detention and fine via a mis-application of law, is tantamount to piracy and extortion; a money grab of the worst sort under the guise of legitimate government action perpetrated against innocent yachtsmen. " ...BINGO
This is why I said that someone with deep pockets and a strong sense of honor (or retribution) could cause the BVI government a great deal of pain. The government did not file a proper notice. "Local knowledge", a press conference or an internet post are not proper notice. And worse, if he kept his GPS track, he can show that he was outside the line of exclusion when he was stopped.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. - Mark Twain
Besides they might have opened themselves up to cruel and unusual punishment incarcerating two long married couples in one dingy hotel room.
I don't think that one will work Will. Sailors willingly put themselves in small, cramped, dingy places with other people all the time, often while experiencing conditions similar to waterboarding and paying a fortune for the privilege
They got off easy with a $1k fine each. When the borders first reopened, the cost to quarantine in the government hotels was around $3k for non-belongers. They should have had to pay that as well.
Jason - Did you even read the account? They were *outside* the exclusion zone. They were wrongfully detained and therefore shouldn’t have had to pay any fine at all. Unfortunately, this type of behavior is becoming common in the corrupt BVI.
We're talking about 2 different boats. The boat that was fined $20k claims to have not been in the exclusion zone but admits he was in BVI waters. He chose to pay his fine immediately, and left for the USVI. He will follow due process to try and have it reversed. He was still in BVI waters so I'm not sure how it will go for him.
The boat that was held, quarantined, and fined $1000 each was 2 miles over the border (closed border), admitted it, and had their day in court.
In defense of the boaters the BVI is a INCLOS signer. The BVI needs to honor that document or withdraw from the program. They failed to follow procedures they agreed to in signing INCLOS. If the boaters involved have the money and time to pursue the issue in court they will do very well.
getting held up for 20k and not being happy about it doesn't make one an "Ugly American"
No but her interviews and social media posts by their relatives certainly strike the "Ugly American" chord IMHO...FWIW I think the 20k fined boat handled it as well as they could but of course they are out 16k more than the other boat that decided to play this out in the media...
There is a history behind the term " Ugly American", so who wants to go abroad and be one ?
Being a guest has some personal responsibilities attached.
Please don’t judge people by your previous history. The sailors had every right to sail by, they didn’t anchor. It’s called innocent passage and only uneducated nations who don’t know the laws will do what the BVI are doing
I fail to understand? Sailing from St. Thomas to St. Francis Bay on St. John doesn't appear to require 'passage' through BVI territorial waters, innocent or otherwise, and certainly would not require a 'fly by' of Soggy Dollar Bar on Jost Van Dyke. It seems a 'stretch' to define 'innocent passage' under the subject international agreement as allowing boaters indiscriminate trespass into foreign territorial waters for pleasure purposes. But then again, I'm not an authority on these matters. The captain/owner did admit on another report that he lost his cool, although I have no idea if 'playing nice' would have changed the outcome.
Noel Hall "It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."
Treating a sovereign nation's borders as a maritime playground, then complaining on the world stage about enforcement of those borders, really doesn't ring my bell in favor of the sailors who got caught where they weren't supposed to be. Ahem, 2 weeks after a massive drug bust...in the middle of a pandemic.???? No sh&t sherlock ?
Slow the roll. If you don't like the BVI rules, don't go there. I live in ski county, I know that no one wants to be tested to come here, I know they still want to come here.
Come here, just mask up. Come here, just respect my 6 foot perimeter. Come here, just PLEASE don't disrespect the boundaries that have been laid for visitors. And, for God's sake, don't say your need to spend money matters more than life and safety.
In the case of Innocent Passage it really doesn’t matter whether they’re crossing the line for a pleasure cruise or commercially. It means they’re cruising past without the intent of entering the country
To answer a couple of questions it certainly appears the boaters played by the rules. I have seen nothing about a fly by of the soggy dollar and don’t believe they entered white bay or even within a mile of Jost. Sailboats are allowed to tack and transit as a right of innocent passage under UNCLOS. The BVI has the right even under UNCLOS to restrict passage. There are however procedures such as publishing a notice to Mariners they failed to follow. When the first boat was seized it was published by several sources they snorkeled at the Indians and were heading for the WillyT. I even suspected that was true because it made sense. Why else would the BVI stop and detain them? As it turns out what makes no sense is the actions of BVI customs. A little bit of common sense goes a long way. The big loser in this is the BVI. It has become worldwide news. I was texted by a friend in Europe who read the story in a local newspaper.
And it looks as though he is going to pursue legal means to get the money back so assuming he is going to follow through we should all have our "legal answer". I do think when he retains counsel and determines the cost and time to pursue this he will cut his losses however
His quote from source above...
"I am now engaged in attempt to vacate my guilty plea and litigate the validity of the fines."
I fail to see your point here? Being 1 mi south of White Bay is not a fly by of Soggy Dollar, and still within a boater'r right of innocent passage. If he entered White Bay I would br more inclined to agree but no evidence of that at all. Add the fact that according to the captain he was outside the exclusion zone as well then the actions of the BVI govt were egregious and in clear violation of UNCLOS.
For the uninformed (me), can someone clarify innocent passage under UNCLOS regulations? Does it allow you to sail anywhere you like in another country's waters or does your route need to be appropriate for a required tack based on wind/sea conditions? Could they have gone on a slow cruise all the way around Tortola based on innocent passage?
I was responding to George who indicated he didn't see anything that showed they "were within a mile from Jost..."
We can all be barnyard barristers here and hopefully Captain Gregory will continue his legal efforts and we will have our answer. Until then probably not a good idea to hop bays in STJ by tacking across the BVI boundary. A PR disaster for sure but a clear shot across the bow in terms of messing with their borders at this time.
The captain claimed he was intercepted at 18 25.629 N 64 46.096 W on their way to St. Francis Bay on St. John. I 'Googled' the coordinates to view his position as he claimed, which appears to be about a mile off White Bay, Jost Van Dyke. This point is well within BVI territorial waters and if not within the 'Exclusion Zone', it was a 'rock's throw'. What were his intentions if he had not been intercepted? It is clearly not a route from St. Thomas to St. Francis Bay. Does the definition of 'innocent passage' mean free reign to sail in the territorial waters of a foreign country, or does it imply a necessary passage to travel from point 'A' to point 'B'?
Noel Hall "It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."
For the uninformed (me), can someone clarify innocent passage under UNCLOS regulations? Does it allow you to sail anywhere you like in another country's waters or does your route need to be appropriate for a required tack based on wind/sea conditions? Could they have gone on a slow cruise all the way around Tortola based on innocent passage?
I would say a cruise around Tortola would not be acceptable. Here is a simple explanation.
The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) enshrines the concept of innocent passage through a coastal state’s territorial sea. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state. A vessel in innocent passage may traverse the coastal state’s territorial sea continuously and expeditiously, not stopping or anchoring except in force majeure situations.
PASSAGE (common definition) - the act or process of moving through, under, over, or past something on the way from one place to another. 'Innocent Passage' per the subject UNCLOS definition - a traverse continuously and expeditiously. In looking at a map of the USVI and BVI, no way does a sail from St. Thomas to St. John necessarily include a traverse into BVI territorial waters. I have to make some assumptions here, but I'm thinking making a tack of 8 miles from Hawksnest Point to Jost Van Dyke and 8 miles back to St. Francis Bay, in order to cover the 4 miles between the two doesn't meet any definition of expeditious passage, and certainly not innocent. Apparently the 'life long sailor' and ten year resident of the USVI (his words) didn't see any problem with this itinerary.
Noel Hall "It is humbling indeed, to discover my own opinion is only correct less than 50% of the time."
PASSAGE (common definition) - the act or process of moving through, under, over, or past something on the way from one place to another. 'Innocent Passage' per the subject UNCLOS definition - a traverse continuously and expeditiously. In looking at a map of the USVI and BVI, no way does a sail from St. Thomas to St. John necessarily include a traverse into BVI territorial waters. I have to make some assumptions here, but I'm thinking making a tack of 8 miles from Hawksnest Point to Jost Van Dyke and 8 miles back to St. Francis Bay, in order to cover the 4 miles between the two doesn't meet any definition of expeditious passage, and certainly not innocent. Apparently the 'life long sailor' and ten year resident of the USVI (his words) didn't see any problem with this itinerary.
I think it's also safe to assume he would have had to cross the exclusion zone to get to the position he was stopped. This seems problematic too...
The exclsion zone was not set up to keep boaters out of BVI waters but to keep them in and monitored. The BVI territorial water boundries did not change vessels wanting to go directly to JVD needed permission to take that route or else where required to go round the back of Tortola.
Right or wrong, the fact that they took them ashore (with no instant Covid test I assume) defies logic. And the $20K fine is overkill considering they had no drugs, weapons, cash...or suitcases onboard. It's bad PR for the BVI....
I'm afraid it's another example of BVIslanders biting their nose(s) off to spite their face (s). So many examples: business regs, routinely lost paperwork and remember the airport customs fusses years ago? Paradise roses aren't supposed to have thorns!
I've got a mustard seed and I'm not afraid to use it.
If the runway is extended the large jets coming in to land will have to approach the runway from West End and traverse the south shore of Tortola and north shores of Norman, Peter and Cooper islands to land. I’m sure the tourists who come to vacation will enjoy the sounds of jet engines while they’re sipping their Pina Coladas.
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